Judging Others, Faith Questions, and Meaningful Conversations

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Have you ever judged a book by its cover?

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Okay,

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maybe you're not a big reader,

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but I'm willing to bet you've judged a person before based on how they look or what they believe.

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I know I have,

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and I'm pretty sure we've all been on the receiving end of that too.

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It doesn't feel great to be misunderstood or written off before someone even tries to know you.

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That's why today's conversation mattered so much to me.

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When Anne,

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you might know her by her pen name,

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amgeever,

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and I first connected on Podmatch.

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Neither of us knew what this conversation would turn into.

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We come from very different belief backgrounds,

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but one thing connected us right away,

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our shared love of writing.

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That connection opened the door to a really honest conversation that wove between apocalyptic fiction,

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faith journeys,

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and what it looks like to truly listen to someone you don't fully agree with.

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I'm genuinely grateful Anne did not follow her first instinct to decline coming on the show,

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because we both would have missed out on the chance to understand each other more deeply.

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This episode pushed me out of my comfort zone,

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and I hope it encourages you to step out of yours too.

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I'm Anna Murby,

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and this is Honest Christian Conversations.

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If this is your first time joining me,

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thank you for being here.

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And if you're returning,

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welcome back.

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If this encourages you,

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I'd love to hear from you.

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Feel free to leave a comment or a review.

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You'll find the link in the show notes.

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Now let's get to the episode.

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Anne,

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thank you so much for coming on to talk to me.

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I know that when we talked before,

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you were a little apprehensive,

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but you liked the idea of talking about differing opinions.

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And it is a very important thing that we see that even if we aren't eye to eye on everything,

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We still have connections.

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We still have things that we can relate to.

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And we should be willing to talk with people that we may differ with on other opinions.

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For example,

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I love what you write about.

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And that's what drew me to you was the type of literature that you write,

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which is kind of apocalyptic,

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zombie,

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all that kind of stuff.

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I find that interesting and exciting.

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I just wanted to talk to you.

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I got to know you.

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where you are spiritually,

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which I also would love to unpack because I know nothing about the universalist side of things.

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So I would really love to know more about that as well,

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whatever you're willing to tell me.

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So yeah,

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let's just jump into it.

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Tell me about Anne.

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Well,

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first off,

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thank you so much for having me.

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And

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I've been looking forward to this because I really appreciated the candor that we were able to have about.

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both of us being a little apprehensive,

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you know,

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like this person might be a little different.

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And I really appreciated that.

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And I was like,

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this is going to be a good conversation,

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you know,

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ahead of time.

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I already knew that.

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Oh,

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so where to start?

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I write post-apocalyptic and disaster fiction.

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I got started with that because like I grew up in a family with that really liked scary movies and monsters and horror and that kind of thing.

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Zombies are obviously something like that in that genre.

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And then growing up in Pittsburgh,

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Pennsylvania,

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this is the area where George Romero invented the modern zombie genre.

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Because before

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Romero, you know,

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zombies were a more supernatural kind of entranced kind of person out of the voodoo tradition.

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They didn't become what we think of when we hear of a zombie until Romero made Night of the Living.

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dead.

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He went to school here.

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I've actually never seen that.

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Oh,

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really?

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Oh,

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if you know,

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I will look for some lists because there are some older movies that you can find where,

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and I think one of the best is a film called I Walked With a Zombie.

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But there are films that,

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you know,

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predating

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Romero that have that element.

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And I mean,

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it's been

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decades since I've seen any of them.

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Yeah.

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So I don't know that any of them are good,

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but I know that I Walk With a Zombie is.

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Anyway,

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George Romero went to college here in Pittsburgh,

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and he did his filmmaking in Pittsburgh and in the larger Western Pennsylvania area.

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Zombies have this outsized influence in

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Pittsburgh. When Dawn of the Dead was premiering,

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it premiered in Pittsburgh.

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My brothers were going to the Monroeville Mall where it was filmed,

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and that was kind of a

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big deal because that was a new mall on the far side of town where we never went because it was really far it was like 30 minutes away

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But we just didn't go to that part of town.

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It had an indoor ice skating rink.

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And I just remember,

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like,

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they were so excited about going to see this film.

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And so,

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you know,

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that also really captured my imaginations.

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You know,

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I ended up writing my first series,

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The Undead Age,

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as a zombie series because I was very intimidated by the idea of writing a book.

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I had wanted to write basically my whole life.

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a big reader.

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That's where my love of writing came from.

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And writing happened to be something that was felt natural for me.

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So

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I decided,

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well,

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I'll write a chick lit book.

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They can't be hard.

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Which is just like the pride,

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you know,

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just the absolute hubris of that statement is very embarrassing to me now.

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But that was that was what I thought.

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I thought,

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okay,

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I can do this kind of book.

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Except I don't read those kind of books very often.

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I enjoy them when I do,

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but I don't read them a whole lot.

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And so my ideas were terrible.

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I mean,

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they were terrible.

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And I would tell my husband,

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well,

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what about this?

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And he'd be like,

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oh,

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that's pretty bad.

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Then I'd tell him the next one and he'd be like,

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oh,

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that's terrible.

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So we did this for several...

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weeks and one Friday evening he had just told me how bad my latest idea was and I was like too bad it can't have zombies and we looked at each other we're like that's what I should write you know because always been a huge fan of the zombie genre and uh so we banged out the plot that weekend and then it took me almost

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10 years to write the book

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But that was how I got started writing post-apocalyptic fiction.

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I love post-apocalyptic fiction.

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I've always liked the what's next.

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This thing has all been torn down.

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So how do we rebuild it?

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Because there are so many ways that can go.

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So that's kind of where

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I come from with why I write what I write.

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As far as what I like to do with it,

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I write character-driven fiction.

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Because,

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you know,

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in general,

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most fiction falls into either character-driven or plot-driven fiction.

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You have both with each,

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but in some,

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it's the plot that's moving the story ahead.

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And the characters are important,

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but the interiority of the characters isn't as big of a thing.

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Whereas a character-driven novel,

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it's really about the characters and their experience.

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and how they get through this and how it changes them.

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Obviously,

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you have to have a compelling story for people to want to read your book.

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So it's not like you have no element of one or the other.

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But I really like people.

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I like what happens to them.

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Why do they make the choices they do?

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How does it change them?

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And post-apocalyptic fiction is fun in that respect because the circumstances are so extreme.

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So,

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you know,

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in a very extreme circumstance,

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you can really push and push and push and push and just make the choices so stark and so painful.

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And

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I think fundamentally I'm interested in writing.

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I went to seminary fundamentally because I'm really interested in people.

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What makes people tick and why do people behave the way they do,

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do the things they do?

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That's kind of shaped a lot of my pursuits and certainly my writing.

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It's actually pretty interesting.

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I've done some writing as well.

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I have a few books that I've published.

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I'm trying to figure out which way they would go in terms of character or plot driven.

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I'll have to.

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look them over and figure that out now that I know the difference.

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As you were talking about why you write this kind of content,

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it made me think of what I've heard many times before you write what you know.

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And it's also funny because you mentioned the hubris of,

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oh,

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I could write that easily.

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No problem.

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That's where I was with that doesn't make any sense.

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How can you only write what you know?

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What if you only know like one thing?

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you can't stay in that lane.

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Maybe you can branch out.

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And it is possible,

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I suppose,

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to branch out,

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but you have to have good ideas,

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like you mentioned.

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I'll be honest,

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some of my ideas are very out there and would be good if I knew how to nail them down and like which genre to actually put them in.

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So

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I think as creatives,

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we just have so many of these amazing ideas,

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which could potentially be good,

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but maybe not us writing them or maybe just we need to think them out more,

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put them in our genre.

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Like what you,

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you and your husband were like,

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oh,

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well,

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maybe if it had zombies.

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made me think of the

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Pride, Prejudice,

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and Zombies.

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I haven't seen it or read it,

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but that's what it made me think of is,

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you know,

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oh,

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this person maybe wanted to write a really nice romantic story,

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but maybe that's not their wheelhouse.

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Like,

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oh,

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zombies.

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Like,

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that's just what I thought of when you said that.

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So it was very interesting.

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And I,

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I love how you grew up with that sort of content,

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you know,

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that's just.

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what you were used to.

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So why could you,

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how could you not want to write something like that?

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I'm pretty sure your books are absolutely amazing because you have such a heart for people.

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Like you said,

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you love knowing why they do what they do,

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what makes them tick.

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And I think that's a really good way to make character fiction actually come alive and feel relatable and actually would move the story,

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the plot and give people a chance to.

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find a character they really like.

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I think

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I do love that kind of genre and like the whole apocalypse thing.

266
00:11:28.481 --> 00:11:28.681
Well,

267
00:11:28.842 --> 00:11:30.102
as you were talking,

268
00:11:30.522 --> 00:11:32.424
I kind of hate write what you know,

269
00:11:33.544 --> 00:11:35.645
because people write fantasy.

270
00:11:35.966 --> 00:11:37.647
People write science fiction.

271
00:11:38.127 --> 00:11:41.589
I grew up with all that horror and that monster movies.

272
00:11:42.309 --> 00:11:44.550
And that's how I know it.

273
00:11:45.091 --> 00:11:46.952
I never thought of it that way.

274
00:11:47.132 --> 00:11:47.252
So,

275
00:11:47.992 --> 00:11:48.272
you know,

276
00:11:48.473 --> 00:11:48.933
just.

277
00:11:50.273 --> 00:11:58.977
in terms of what are your interests and what do you steep yourself in,

278
00:11:59.877 --> 00:12:00.838
that's how you know it.

279
00:12:01.018 --> 00:12:02.299
So it doesn't have to be,

280
00:12:02.619 --> 00:12:04.339
because right what you know is so,

281
00:12:05.620 --> 00:12:06.961
it can be so literal.

282
00:12:07.141 --> 00:12:07.301
Well,

283
00:12:08.341 --> 00:12:10.202
I think we take it very literally.

284
00:12:10.602 --> 00:12:10.983
At least

285
00:12:11.543 --> 00:12:12.363
I always did.

286
00:12:13.043 --> 00:12:13.264
Yeah,

287
00:12:13.484 --> 00:12:14.404
me too.

288
00:12:14.405 --> 00:12:15.365
I did.

289
00:12:17.005 --> 00:12:18.106
If you write what you know,

290
00:12:18.186 --> 00:12:18.566
I mean,

291
00:12:19.147 --> 00:12:20.347
it's very limiting.

292
00:12:20.608 --> 00:12:23.430
And one of the things,

293
00:12:25.271 --> 00:12:29.794
your imagination is where all of these,

294
00:12:30.895 --> 00:12:34.137
any idea for any kind of art starts,

295
00:12:34.197 --> 00:12:34.497
you know?

296
00:12:34.597 --> 00:12:35.118
It's like,

297
00:12:35.718 --> 00:12:36.318
what if?

298
00:12:37.219 --> 00:12:37.379
Yeah.

299
00:12:37.539 --> 00:12:37.779
You know,

300
00:12:38.060 --> 00:12:40.381
HG Wells wrote The War of the Worlds,

301
00:12:40.441 --> 00:12:41.662
which I have never read.

302
00:12:41.802 --> 00:12:42.963
My husband says it's great.

303
00:12:43.684 --> 00:12:44.144
Actually,

304
00:12:44.244 --> 00:12:44.704
the movie.

305
00:12:45.465 --> 00:12:45.645
Yes.

306
00:12:47.126 --> 00:12:48.987
I've seen several versions of the myth.

307
00:12:49.867 --> 00:12:50.127
And,

308
00:12:50.488 --> 00:12:50.788
you know,

309
00:12:51.648 --> 00:12:51.768
G.

310
00:12:51.928 --> 00:12:53.409
Wells wrote that in the early

311
00:12:55.030 --> 00:12:55.150
1900s.

312
00:12:56.591 --> 00:12:57.691
There's no way he knew that.

313
00:12:59.172 --> 00:12:59.372
Well,

314
00:12:59.452 --> 00:13:02.474
it's just like monsters from outer space.

315
00:13:02.814 --> 00:13:03.194
I mean,

316
00:13:03.955 --> 00:13:06.696
that was just so out there.

317
00:13:06.936 --> 00:13:08.898
But that was somebody thinking,

318
00:13:09.258 --> 00:13:09.638
you know,

319
00:13:10.058 --> 00:13:10.238
well,

320
00:13:10.358 --> 00:13:11.019
what if?

321
00:13:13.420 --> 00:13:14.901
I think it's always really...

322
00:13:17.157 --> 00:13:35.069
helpful if people hear other people saying it's not just what you know in lived experience it's what you know in terms of anything you've been exposed to and then it's

323
00:13:35.269 --> 00:13:43.795
your imagination and an imagination is it's so creative it's it can be so out there

324
00:13:44.275 --> 00:13:46.677
I mean there are so many authors I've read their...

325
00:13:46.817 --> 00:13:47.838
books and I've been like,

326
00:13:47.858 --> 00:13:49.219
why didn't I have this idea?

327
00:13:49.319 --> 00:13:50.900
I wish I had this idea.

328
00:13:51.061 --> 00:13:51.461
Yeah,

329
00:13:51.481 --> 00:13:52.181
I've been there too.

330
00:13:52.982 --> 00:13:53.523
Oh yeah,

331
00:13:53.723 --> 00:13:54.403
absolutely.

332
00:13:54.684 --> 00:13:54.924
Yeah,

333
00:13:55.064 --> 00:13:58.887
that just really triggered that for me when you said that because,

334
00:14:00.108 --> 00:14:00.488
I don't know,

335
00:14:00.648 --> 00:14:03.271
there's a lot of really bad writing advice out there.

336
00:14:05.132 --> 00:14:05.753
The more

337
00:14:06.173 --> 00:14:07.955
I write,

338
00:14:08.275 --> 00:14:09.316
like write every day.

339
00:14:10.016 --> 00:14:10.637
I have a friend,

340
00:14:10.757 --> 00:14:12.518
he writes every day and that works for him.

341
00:14:12.558 --> 00:14:13.119
That's great.

342
00:14:13.299 --> 00:14:14.920
But that doesn't work for everybody.

343
00:14:15.040 --> 00:14:15.421
People...

344
00:14:15.761 --> 00:14:19.722
tie themselves in knots trying to to take that advice so

345
00:14:20.402 --> 00:14:26.024
I know I've found you know I've read some writing books craft books and

346
00:14:26.364 --> 00:14:33.826
I generally find there's one thing in a book that will resonate with me you know

347
00:14:34.366 --> 00:14:41.908
I'll read it and I'll be like oh or I have that like aha kind of recognition that Like,

348
00:14:42.068 --> 00:14:42.368
okay,

349
00:14:42.488 --> 00:14:43.769
this is something that

350
00:14:44.209 --> 00:14:44.329
I...

351
00:14:46.521 --> 00:14:50.387
can work with or this makes sense to me.

352
00:14:50.608 --> 00:14:53.252
I think using our

353
00:14:54.959 --> 00:15:04.625
inner self as a way to find those pieces of information are helpful.

354
00:15:04.965 --> 00:15:09.408
Now that's different than learning how to write well.

355
00:15:09.548 --> 00:15:14.671
I was really lucky because when I started to write my book,

356
00:15:15.711 --> 00:15:17.873
my friend who I didn't know wrote,

357
00:15:19.734 --> 00:15:21.715
had told me she was starting a writing group.

358
00:15:22.563 --> 00:15:23.444
And I was like,

359
00:15:23.484 --> 00:15:23.624
oh,

360
00:15:23.704 --> 00:15:24.124
I write.

361
00:15:24.164 --> 00:15:25.005
I want to be in it.

362
00:15:26.386 --> 00:15:31.290
I lucked out because it turned out to be a really good group of people and,

363
00:15:31.550 --> 00:15:31.890
you know,

364
00:15:32.811 --> 00:15:34.092
really good writers,

365
00:15:34.152 --> 00:15:35.853
writers who were better than me,

366
00:15:36.393 --> 00:15:36.633
which,

367
00:15:36.874 --> 00:15:37.194
you know,

368
00:15:37.734 --> 00:15:40.216
is wonderful because you can learn so much.

369
00:15:40.656 --> 00:15:40.816
Yeah.

370
00:15:41.017 --> 00:15:42.618
And and,

371
00:15:42.638 --> 00:15:42.898
you know,

372
00:15:42.978 --> 00:15:45.760
like like I started that group and

373
00:15:46.481 --> 00:15:49.503
I didn't understand the rules of point of view.

374
00:15:51.123 --> 00:15:51.403
You know,

375
00:15:51.423 --> 00:15:54.204
and I did something that is very common with writers,

376
00:15:54.264 --> 00:15:55.325
which is head hopping.

377
00:15:56.105 --> 00:15:56.445
You know,

378
00:15:57.006 --> 00:16:03.668
you start the scene from my point of view and then I want to tell Anna's perception.

379
00:16:03.808 --> 00:16:05.749
And so then I in the same chapter,

380
00:16:05.809 --> 00:16:08.931
I hop over and suddenly it's coming from Anna's point of view.

381
00:16:09.791 --> 00:16:14.053
And that's really confusing to a reader because,

382
00:16:14.453 --> 00:16:14.833
you know,

383
00:16:15.173 --> 00:16:17.234
they've been reading in my point of view.

384
00:16:17.274 --> 00:16:19.435
And then all of a sudden it's you and.

385
00:16:20.219 --> 00:16:22.160
They don't always catch that.

386
00:16:22.700 --> 00:16:22.860
And,

387
00:16:23.000 --> 00:16:23.280
and,

388
00:16:23.560 --> 00:16:23.800
and,

389
00:16:24.000 --> 00:16:25.681
but I didn't understand that at all.

390
00:16:26.121 --> 00:16:27.361
And I had to learn that.

391
00:16:27.541 --> 00:16:30.302
Even with like first person point of view,

392
00:16:30.442 --> 00:16:32.422
where it's all from the character's point of view,

393
00:16:33.543 --> 00:16:36.684
I in general do not write in first person.

394
00:16:36.744 --> 00:16:38.804
I write in third person past.

395
00:16:40.165 --> 00:16:46.046
I've become very good friends with a really fantastic writer who writes post-apocalyptic fiction.

396
00:16:46.146 --> 00:16:47.967
Her name is Sarah Lyons Fleming.

397
00:16:48.027 --> 00:16:48.467
She writes.

398
00:16:48.667 --> 00:16:49.487
zombie fiction.

399
00:16:49.567 --> 00:16:50.948
And if you haven't read her stuff,

400
00:16:51.448 --> 00:16:53.209
you really should.

401
00:16:53.549 --> 00:16:54.229
It's wonderful.

402
00:16:54.269 --> 00:16:55.950
I tell everybody to read her stuff.

403
00:16:56.630 --> 00:16:57.971
She writes in first person.

404
00:16:58.131 --> 00:17:00.712
And I wrote a short story in first person.

405
00:17:00.892 --> 00:17:02.093
And she started,

406
00:17:02.113 --> 00:17:02.893
she was explaining,

407
00:17:02.973 --> 00:17:03.233
okay,

408
00:17:03.253 --> 00:17:08.335
you can't do this because it's in first person and it doesn't work.

409
00:17:08.415 --> 00:17:08.675
You know,

410
00:17:08.695 --> 00:17:14.418
so I've been at this for more than 15 years and I'm still learning from other people.

411
00:17:14.578 --> 00:17:17.639
I think it's important to be open.

412
00:17:18.271 --> 00:17:21.173
to learning from other people because you won't get better.

413
00:17:21.653 --> 00:17:25.136
It doesn't mean you have to take everybody's advice.

414
00:17:25.336 --> 00:17:25.596
You know,

415
00:17:25.696 --> 00:17:26.837
in that writing group,

416
00:17:27.057 --> 00:17:32.461
I had a rule with myself because especially new writers were very protective of our work.

417
00:17:33.042 --> 00:17:33.962
My poor husband,

418
00:17:34.723 --> 00:17:36.244
we would be walking the dog,

419
00:17:36.624 --> 00:17:37.925
we'd be talking about my book,

420
00:17:38.626 --> 00:17:42.148
and he would have an idea and he would make a suggestion.

421
00:17:42.689 --> 00:17:46.071
And I would immediately shut him down and tell him why that couldn't work.

422
00:17:46.843 --> 00:17:49.905
And then I think about it and a week later I'd be like,

423
00:17:49.906 --> 00:17:50.145
you know,

424
00:17:50.205 --> 00:17:50.486
that's,

425
00:17:50.686 --> 00:17:52.307
that's actually a pretty good idea.

426
00:17:52.527 --> 00:17:52.947
I mean,

427
00:17:53.007 --> 00:17:53.508
poor man.

428
00:17:53.748 --> 00:17:54.328
I've done that.

429
00:17:54.329 --> 00:17:54.448
Oh,

430
00:17:54.508 --> 00:17:55.049
fortune.

431
00:17:57.210 --> 00:17:57.370
Yeah.

432
00:17:57.731 --> 00:17:58.011
You know,

433
00:17:58.171 --> 00:18:00.793
but like you have to be willing to,

434
00:18:01.653 --> 00:18:03.575
to entertain those ideas.

435
00:18:03.576 --> 00:18:04.976
So I had a rule with myself,

436
00:18:05.036 --> 00:18:09.999
which was if one person said something and it just didn't resonate at all,

437
00:18:11.160 --> 00:18:11.540
fine.

438
00:18:11.660 --> 00:18:15.083
I could ignore it because my group had five people in it.

439
00:18:15.583 --> 00:18:15.703
if

440
00:18:15.863 --> 00:18:17.724
two or more people said something,

441
00:18:17.924 --> 00:18:19.445
I had to look at it.

442
00:18:19.825 --> 00:18:21.085
I had to consider it.

443
00:18:21.226 --> 00:18:24.367
And sometimes they were right.

444
00:18:25.227 --> 00:18:25.427
Yeah.

445
00:18:25.668 --> 00:18:25.948
You know,

446
00:18:26.028 --> 00:18:32.831
but if I had not been willing to entertain the possibility that maybe other people,

447
00:18:34.872 --> 00:18:35.172
you know,

448
00:18:35.372 --> 00:18:36.152
knew something,

449
00:18:36.352 --> 00:18:38.253
my writing would never improve.

450
00:18:38.413 --> 00:18:39.614
That's very good advice,

451
00:18:39.734 --> 00:18:40.074
actually,

452
00:18:40.134 --> 00:18:41.255
not just for writing,

453
00:18:41.395 --> 00:18:41.655
but.

454
00:18:42.139 --> 00:18:43.119
In life in general,

455
00:18:43.120 --> 00:18:43.580
we need to,

456
00:18:43.760 --> 00:18:43.980
yeah,

457
00:18:44.200 --> 00:18:51.283
we need to be willing to learn from each other and be willing to have conversations that might be difficult.

458
00:18:52.043 --> 00:18:52.524
Like you said,

459
00:18:52.544 --> 00:18:54.444
you wouldn't have grown had people not said,

460
00:18:54.524 --> 00:18:54.644
oh,

461
00:18:54.765 --> 00:18:56.885
you shouldn't do this or you can't do this or,

462
00:18:57.286 --> 00:18:57.526
you know,

463
00:18:57.546 --> 00:18:58.766
try this advice.

464
00:18:59.266 --> 00:19:00.867
You learn by doing things,

465
00:19:00.927 --> 00:19:01.888
by trying things,

466
00:19:02.248 --> 00:19:03.929
from getting advice from people.

467
00:19:04.509 --> 00:19:09.471
It always was hard for me whenever my husband would read something I wrote and he'd...

468
00:19:09.923 --> 00:19:14.545
either correct the grammar that I missed after like six times of reading it through.

469
00:19:14.565 --> 00:19:14.985
And I was like,

470
00:19:15.025 --> 00:19:16.326
how did I miss that?

471
00:19:16.386 --> 00:19:19.647
And I'd get mad or he'd give me advice.

472
00:19:19.907 --> 00:19:23.168
And he's very honest and I appreciate the honesty.

473
00:19:23.829 --> 00:19:24.489
And he'll say,

474
00:19:24.549 --> 00:19:24.669
well,

475
00:19:24.689 --> 00:19:28.511
this doesn't make any sense or I don't get this or this is kind of boring to me.

476
00:19:28.671 --> 00:19:32.132
And I have to take what he says and think about,

477
00:19:32.212 --> 00:19:32.332
OK,

478
00:19:32.552 --> 00:19:32.692
well,

479
00:19:32.772 --> 00:19:34.593
is he actually my target audience.

480
00:19:34.833 --> 00:19:34.953
No.

481
00:19:35.593 --> 00:19:37.834
So his boring comment is okay.

482
00:19:38.214 --> 00:19:38.975
That's for him.

483
00:19:39.115 --> 00:19:39.495
I get that.

484
00:19:39.535 --> 00:19:39.735
that.

485
00:19:40.236 --> 00:19:42.078
But why is he saying it's boring?

486
00:19:42.258 --> 00:19:47.324
Is it boring because it's just boring to him or is it boring because it's boring?

487
00:19:47.825 --> 00:19:52.210
And then I prod him a little more and sometimes it hurts to hear it.

488
00:19:52.550 --> 00:19:53.151
But like you said,

489
00:19:53.171 --> 00:19:56.435
you won't grow as a writer if you don't allow people.

490
00:19:57.408 --> 00:19:58.648
to give you feedback,

491
00:19:58.668 --> 00:19:59.509
to talk to you,

492
00:19:59.629 --> 00:20:03.150
to give advice from people who might be a little more successful than you.

493
00:20:03.830 --> 00:20:04.910
It goes for anything.

494
00:20:04.990 --> 00:20:06.070
With my podcasting,

495
00:20:06.090 --> 00:20:07.231
I have to do the same thing.

496
00:20:07.371 --> 00:20:13.792
I listen to a lot of podcasting podcasts and I learn things and there's tips that they've given that I'm like,

497
00:20:13.812 --> 00:20:13.932
well,

498
00:20:13.933 --> 00:20:15.073
that just doesn't work for me,

499
00:20:15.493 --> 00:20:16.953
but I've heard it from so many people.

500
00:20:17.013 --> 00:20:18.654
This is what you have to keep doing.

501
00:20:18.655 --> 00:20:19.034
And I'm like,

502
00:20:19.054 --> 00:20:19.214
well,

503
00:20:19.374 --> 00:20:20.874
I think this is stupid advice.

504
00:20:21.335 --> 00:20:22.415
It doesn't work for me,

505
00:20:22.635 --> 00:20:22.835
but

506
00:20:23.415 --> 00:20:25.316
I might give it to somebody else and say,

507
00:20:25.396 --> 00:20:26.436
it may work for you.

508
00:20:26.988 --> 00:20:28.429
this might be better for you.

509
00:20:29.189 --> 00:20:30.510
I love that you mentioned that,

510
00:20:30.570 --> 00:20:38.615
that we just need to be willing and open to talking to people and getting advice and learning.

511
00:20:39.275 --> 00:20:40.896
Learning is important in life.

512
00:20:40.897 --> 00:20:44.618
We're not just meant to be here and stick to what we know,

513
00:20:44.718 --> 00:20:47.840
which goes back to what we were saying was a terrible thing,

514
00:20:48.180 --> 00:20:49.521
advice for writers.

515
00:20:50.581 --> 00:20:52.242
You shouldn't just stick to what you know,

516
00:20:52.362 --> 00:20:55.744
should always want to learn more and understand more and experience more.

517
00:20:55.744 --> 00:20:57.265
expand yourself more.

518
00:20:58.066 --> 00:20:58.846
So yeah,

519
00:20:58.927 --> 00:21:01.028
I like that you reminded us of that.

520
00:21:01.128 --> 00:21:01.689
So thank you.

521
00:21:02.990 --> 00:21:03.730
You're welcome.

522
00:21:04.051 --> 00:21:04.291
Well,

523
00:21:04.851 --> 00:21:09.034
you did mention a while back casually that you were in seminary.

524
00:21:09.755 --> 00:21:11.056
What kind of seminary?

525
00:21:11.176 --> 00:21:14.339
I went to a Unitarian Universalist seminary.

526
00:21:15.460 --> 00:21:17.641
Unitarian Universalists are,

527
00:21:18.362 --> 00:21:19.683
come out of the Enlightenment,

528
00:21:19.803 --> 00:21:20.203
the great,

529
00:21:20.303 --> 00:21:20.964
or I'm sorry.

530
00:21:21.380 --> 00:21:24.763
come out of the Great Awakening here in the United States in the early 1700s.

531
00:21:26.784 --> 00:21:29.206
The basic idea is Unitarian,

532
00:21:29.567 --> 00:21:30.227
one God,

533
00:21:30.567 --> 00:21:31.368
Universalist,

534
00:21:31.708 --> 00:21:33.009
universal salvation.

535
00:21:33.330 --> 00:21:33.650
You know,

536
00:21:34.090 --> 00:21:34.351
I mean,

537
00:21:34.371 --> 00:21:41.937
those were their foundational religious system around which they understood Christianity.

538
00:21:42.157 --> 00:21:43.238
And then in the,

539
00:21:43.738 --> 00:21:44.659
I think it was the late

540
00:21:45.740 --> 00:21:47.361
1960s or mid-1960s,

541
00:21:48.442 --> 00:21:50.944
the two congregations merged.

542
00:21:51.564 --> 00:21:54.206
So then they became Unitarian Universalists.

543
00:21:54.207 --> 00:21:55.887
It's unusual in some respects.

544
00:21:56.667 --> 00:21:58.088
It does not have a creed.

545
00:22:00.269 --> 00:22:02.010
We all believe this.

546
00:22:03.291 --> 00:22:08.374
They frame it in terms of having a responsible search for truth and meaning.

547
00:22:10.074 --> 00:22:12.276
So that's very unusual.

548
00:22:12.976 --> 00:22:18.659
They're very much on the liberal progressive end of things socially,

549
00:22:18.879 --> 00:22:19.300
which is,

550
00:22:19.380 --> 00:22:19.640
you know,

551
00:22:19.720 --> 00:22:19.960
where...

552
00:22:20.240 --> 00:22:24.123
where I come from in terms of my family.

553
00:22:24.964 --> 00:22:28.187
I did not grow up in the Unitarian Universalist tradition.

554
00:22:28.447 --> 00:22:31.329
So my family background was Roman Catholic,

555
00:22:32.310 --> 00:22:33.411
which is very different.

556
00:22:34.372 --> 00:22:34.692
Yes.

557
00:22:34.872 --> 00:22:35.052
Yeah.

558
00:22:35.172 --> 00:22:35.372
Well,

559
00:22:36.013 --> 00:22:36.493
and again,

560
00:22:36.653 --> 00:22:37.254
even that,

561
00:22:37.414 --> 00:22:39.696
my parents were very traditional Catholics.

562
00:22:40.276 --> 00:22:41.838
They got married in the mid

563
00:22:42.838 --> 00:22:44.520
1950s. My father is from Ireland.

564
00:22:45.220 --> 00:22:47.462
My mother is American.

565
00:22:47.622 --> 00:22:49.484
Her parents were from Ireland.

566
00:22:50.064 --> 00:22:50.204
And,

567
00:22:50.205 --> 00:22:50.464
you know,

568
00:22:50.664 --> 00:22:51.965
so they came from a very,

569
00:22:52.045 --> 00:22:53.445
very traditional background.

570
00:22:53.625 --> 00:22:55.526
When in the late 60s,

571
00:22:55.546 --> 00:22:58.407
my mother decided she wanted to go to college,

572
00:22:58.587 --> 00:23:00.047
was exposed to feminism,

573
00:23:00.747 --> 00:23:05.509
started to examine like her life at this point,

574
00:23:05.569 --> 00:23:05.829
you know,

575
00:23:05.909 --> 00:23:08.690
like she had me when she was in college,

576
00:23:08.830 --> 00:23:09.130
you know,

577
00:23:09.230 --> 00:23:13.551
so she had her eighth child because there are nine kids in my family.

578
00:23:13.691 --> 00:23:15.032
That was a really social.

579
00:23:16.852 --> 00:23:17.092
I mean,

580
00:23:17.132 --> 00:23:18.853
there was so much going on in the

581
00:23:19.233 --> 00:23:20.033
60s and the 70s,

582
00:23:20.073 --> 00:23:24.235
even in the 50s with the start of the civil rights movement that,

583
00:23:24.755 --> 00:23:25.016
you know,

584
00:23:25.076 --> 00:23:28.197
people were really questioning and examining and,

585
00:23:28.377 --> 00:23:28.697
you know,

586
00:23:28.837 --> 00:23:29.878
figuring things out.

587
00:23:31.258 --> 00:23:31.538
And,

588
00:23:33.219 --> 00:23:33.439
you know,

589
00:23:33.440 --> 00:23:35.860
in terms of like just society,

590
00:23:36.340 --> 00:23:36.680
I mean,

591
00:23:36.700 --> 00:23:37.981
there was just so much going on.

592
00:23:38.441 --> 00:23:38.581
Well,

593
00:23:38.621 --> 00:23:42.163
my mother finally got to the point where she was like,

594
00:23:42.463 --> 00:23:42.743
you know,

595
00:23:42.903 --> 00:23:44.944
I can't do much about being.

596
00:23:45.768 --> 00:23:47.849
in this patriarchal world.

597
00:23:47.949 --> 00:23:48.669
Like it's very,

598
00:23:49.229 --> 00:23:49.550
that's,

599
00:23:49.670 --> 00:23:50.550
that's too big,

600
00:23:50.610 --> 00:23:54.332
but I don't have to participate in this patriarchal religion.

601
00:23:54.812 --> 00:23:57.153
So my mother left the church and,

602
00:23:57.333 --> 00:23:57.593
you know,

603
00:23:57.653 --> 00:23:59.774
at that point when I was about five.

604
00:24:00.294 --> 00:24:11.859
So at that point it was no longer mandatory for any of the kids because she wasn't going to make us do something that she wasn't doing and that she quite frankly didn't believe in anymore.

605
00:24:12.439 --> 00:24:15.080
Whereas my dad always is still.

606
00:24:15.428 --> 00:24:15.988
to this day.

607
00:24:16.529 --> 00:24:16.929
Catholic,

608
00:24:17.069 --> 00:24:19.011
he goes to mass every single day.

609
00:24:19.531 --> 00:24:20.812
He's almost 92,

610
00:24:20.932 --> 00:24:21.052
so,

611
00:24:21.173 --> 00:24:21.473
you know,

612
00:24:21.474 --> 00:24:22.393
he does it at home,

613
00:24:22.614 --> 00:24:23.314
you know,

614
00:24:23.414 --> 00:24:24.155
watching on TV.

615
00:24:24.455 --> 00:24:27.377
I came from this background where,

616
00:24:27.638 --> 00:24:27.878
you know,

617
00:24:27.879 --> 00:24:30.980
there had been this really big evolution within the family,

618
00:24:31.200 --> 00:24:35.484
as well as looking at other options.

619
00:24:35.584 --> 00:24:39.367
My mother did eventually go to a Unitarian Universalist.

620
00:24:39.507 --> 00:24:39.807
Gosh,

621
00:24:39.808 --> 00:24:40.908
I have trouble with words.

622
00:24:42.769 --> 00:24:44.511
It is kind of a tongue twister.

623
00:24:44.691 --> 00:24:48.774
So they say to you,

624
00:24:48.955 --> 00:24:55.540
you going to a UU church and which is how I became exposed to it.

625
00:24:55.994 --> 00:24:56.475
So anyway,

626
00:24:56.655 --> 00:24:57.756
very long story short,

627
00:24:57.876 --> 00:25:01.278
I was trying to figure out what I wanted to do with my life.

628
00:25:01.579 --> 00:25:02.960
I was in my early

629
00:25:03.520 --> 00:25:03.640
20s.

630
00:25:04.962 --> 00:25:07.564
I had moved from the East Coast to San Francisco,

631
00:25:08.044 --> 00:25:08.264
which,

632
00:25:08.344 --> 00:25:08.585
you know,

633
00:25:08.605 --> 00:25:09.525
a really great city,

634
00:25:09.565 --> 00:25:12.268
or at least it was then in the early

635
00:25:12.828 --> 00:25:14.509
90s. And I was trying to find a place to,

636
00:25:14.549 --> 00:25:14.750
like,

637
00:25:15.010 --> 00:25:15.911
meet friends,

638
00:25:15.991 --> 00:25:16.611
meet people.

639
00:25:17.032 --> 00:25:17.372
I thought,

640
00:25:17.373 --> 00:25:17.512
well,

641
00:25:17.513 --> 00:25:18.693
I'll try the UU Church.

642
00:25:18.733 --> 00:25:20.354
And this young adult group,

643
00:25:20.355 --> 00:25:21.515
so I started going there.

644
00:25:21.555 --> 00:25:24.338
And that was really interesting and fun.

645
00:25:24.378 --> 00:25:24.738
man

646
00:25:24.858 --> 00:25:39.882
lots of interesting people and a lot of people who who um end up at uu churches they didn't necessarily grow up in the faith tradition they come from other places so you'll find people who who

647
00:25:40.042 --> 00:25:52.646
grew up any number of stripes of the christian faith you've got people who are jewish you've got people who have a buddhist angle to their their spiritual practice um

648
00:25:54.558 --> 00:25:56.339
So I was trying to figure out what I wanted to do,

649
00:25:57.039 --> 00:25:59.821
and I wanted to figure out my own spiritual path.

650
00:26:00.461 --> 00:26:00.942
And I thought,

651
00:26:01.002 --> 00:26:01.162
well,

652
00:26:01.402 --> 00:26:02.723
why don't I go to seminary?

653
00:26:03.143 --> 00:26:06.125
I could figure these things out there.

654
00:26:07.065 --> 00:26:09.627
I could work with people.

655
00:26:10.047 --> 00:26:11.908
I could do something good in the world.

656
00:26:12.668 --> 00:26:14.689
So that's what I decided to do.

657
00:26:15.310 --> 00:26:16.931
Going to seminary was wonderful.

658
00:26:17.071 --> 00:26:21.373
I went to a Unitarian seminary called Star King School for the Ministry.

659
00:26:21.493 --> 00:26:22.594
It was named after...

660
00:26:23.166 --> 00:26:24.087
Thomas Stark King,

661
00:26:24.167 --> 00:26:24.867
who was a very,

662
00:26:26.048 --> 00:26:26.209
in

663
00:26:26.709 --> 00:26:28.510
Unitarian Universalist circles,

664
00:26:28.931 --> 00:26:33.274
very famous minister in the

665
00:26:35.616 --> 00:26:36.657
1850s and 60s.

666
00:26:36.817 --> 00:26:43.062
He was actually very instrumental in helping keep California in the Union during the Civil War.

667
00:26:43.182 --> 00:26:43.463
You know,

668
00:26:43.503 --> 00:26:46.325
so I think he was someone who did some interesting things.

669
00:26:46.665 --> 00:26:46.825
Yeah.

670
00:26:47.126 --> 00:26:47.366
And,

671
00:26:48.367 --> 00:26:49.868
but I was lucky because,

672
00:26:50.368 --> 00:26:51.089
and this was in

673
00:26:51.509 --> 00:26:52.130
Berkeley, so.

674
00:26:52.430 --> 00:26:53.731
I ended up moving over to Berkeley.

675
00:26:54.371 --> 00:26:54.532
But

676
00:26:55.712 --> 00:27:00.095
Star King was part of the Graduate Theological Union,

677
00:27:00.476 --> 00:27:03.178
which was a consortium of nine different seminaries.

678
00:27:06.039 --> 00:27:07.440
And they had a common registrar.

679
00:27:08.401 --> 00:27:10.443
So there were three Catholic schools.

680
00:27:10.983 --> 00:27:11.663
There was us.

681
00:27:11.844 --> 00:27:13.725
There was an Episcopalian Seminary,

682
00:27:13.865 --> 00:27:14.966
Baptist Seminary,

683
00:27:15.186 --> 00:27:16.547
Presbyterian Seminary,

684
00:27:16.747 --> 00:27:19.689
and an interdenominational

685
00:27:20.209 --> 00:27:21.110
Christian Seminary.

686
00:27:21.730 --> 00:27:24.713
And we could take classes at any of these schools.

687
00:27:25.193 --> 00:27:30.297
So I got exposed to a lot of different faith traditions.

688
00:27:30.598 --> 00:27:33.420
And I took my Old Testament at the

689
00:27:33.840 --> 00:27:35.061
Franciscan Seminary.

690
00:27:35.081 --> 00:27:37.183
I took New Testament at the Baptist Seminary.

691
00:27:37.503 --> 00:27:43.288
I took a pastoral counseling class at my seminary.

692
00:27:43.568 --> 00:27:50.754
My advisor was a Catholic nun who had taught at one of the Catholic seminaries.

693
00:27:50.894 --> 00:27:56.478
but they had a purge of feminists and more progressive people the year before I started.

694
00:27:56.858 --> 00:27:58.459
She ended up teaching a Star King.

695
00:27:58.619 --> 00:28:05.284
It was this very diverse kind of rich background and a really interesting place to study.

696
00:28:06.345 --> 00:28:10.288
So in the course of my studies,

697
00:28:10.368 --> 00:28:11.449
I realized that

698
00:28:12.069 --> 00:28:13.970
I just didn't want to be a minister.

699
00:28:14.070 --> 00:28:14.371
You know,

700
00:28:14.831 --> 00:28:18.974
I had gone into it with this very idealized idea.

701
00:28:19.766 --> 00:28:21.146
of what ministry was.

702
00:28:22.087 --> 00:28:22.447
And,

703
00:28:24.547 --> 00:28:24.707
and,

704
00:28:24.887 --> 00:28:27.508
and I realized I didn't want to do it.

705
00:28:27.688 --> 00:28:28.088
And I,

706
00:28:29.669 --> 00:28:30.869
by the end of seminary,

707
00:28:31.169 --> 00:28:33.050
I had decided that like,

708
00:28:33.270 --> 00:28:35.050
UU was not where I wanted to be.

709
00:28:35.350 --> 00:28:35.610
You know,

710
00:28:35.710 --> 00:28:37.171
by the time I got to the end,

711
00:28:37.211 --> 00:28:37.671
I was like,

712
00:28:37.672 --> 00:28:39.531
there's no there there for me.

713
00:28:40.852 --> 00:28:42.752
And then there were just silly things.

714
00:28:42.792 --> 00:28:47.794
Like I remember having a conversation with a friend of mine in the kitchen at school about how like,

715
00:28:47.894 --> 00:28:48.334
you know what?

716
00:28:48.634 --> 00:28:49.094
I don't like.

717
00:28:49.214 --> 00:28:50.575
potlucks.

718
00:28:50.576 --> 00:28:50.855
He's like,

719
00:28:50.895 --> 00:28:52.256
I don't like potlucks either.

720
00:28:53.177 --> 00:28:55.298
I don't always want to have to work on Sunday.

721
00:28:55.299 --> 00:28:55.478
I mean,

722
00:28:55.798 --> 00:28:57.440
what if I want to have the weekend off?

723
00:28:57.480 --> 00:28:57.700
I mean,

724
00:28:57.701 --> 00:29:03.263
it was the most ridiculous conversation because it was about these little silly things,

725
00:29:03.264 --> 00:29:03.584
you know?

726
00:29:03.744 --> 00:29:04.324
So anyway,

727
00:29:04.404 --> 00:29:06.346
I ended up going back to the Catholic church,

728
00:29:06.446 --> 00:29:11.009
which there's a lot of people who grew up Catholic and end up in the UU church.

729
00:29:11.069 --> 00:29:16.873
There are not a lot who start out in UU and end up going back to migration.

730
00:29:17.513 --> 00:29:17.733
Yeah.

731
00:29:18.033 --> 00:29:18.714
So it was,

732
00:29:19.186 --> 00:29:20.667
It was really interesting.

733
00:29:20.927 --> 00:29:25.109
Some of my best friends to this day are people that met there,

734
00:29:25.290 --> 00:29:25.550
you know,

735
00:29:25.570 --> 00:29:27.231
and some went on to ministry.

736
00:29:28.071 --> 00:29:28.771
Some didn't.

737
00:29:28.872 --> 00:29:30.733
Some went on to become chaplains,

738
00:29:30.833 --> 00:29:33.214
which is obviously ministry of a different sort.

739
00:29:33.614 --> 00:29:34.335
Yeah.

740
00:29:34.336 --> 00:29:34.475
Yeah,

741
00:29:34.476 --> 00:29:36.176
my stepdad's actually a chaplain.

742
00:29:36.736 --> 00:29:36.876
Oh,

743
00:29:36.896 --> 00:29:37.456
is he?

744
00:29:37.717 --> 00:29:38.537
Yeah.

745
00:29:38.557 --> 00:29:40.458
I did a chaplaincy internship,

746
00:29:40.478 --> 00:29:41.819
and I really like chaplaincy.

747
00:29:41.939 --> 00:29:42.119
Like,

748
00:29:42.399 --> 00:29:44.140
if I were to pursue ministry,

749
00:29:44.220 --> 00:29:45.461
that is what I would do.

750
00:29:45.701 --> 00:29:47.082
And I did eventually.

751
00:29:48.326 --> 00:29:51.613
end up leaving the Catholic Church for the same reason as my mother is,

752
00:29:51.833 --> 00:29:52.154
you know,

753
00:29:52.314 --> 00:29:52.876
I was like,

754
00:29:53.036 --> 00:29:54.339
this is so sexist.

755
00:29:54.559 --> 00:29:55.842
What am I doing here?

756
00:29:56.042 --> 00:29:56.603
I think my

757
00:29:57.804 --> 00:30:05.086
There are two parts to my evolution as a person who is spiritual.

758
00:30:05.526 --> 00:30:06.466
The first is,

759
00:30:06.846 --> 00:30:08.587
are people basically good or bad?

760
00:30:09.127 --> 00:30:09.687
I mean,

761
00:30:09.727 --> 00:30:14.929
that was always my question because people do so many wonderful things.

762
00:30:15.729 --> 00:30:17.809
And they do so many terrible things.

763
00:30:19.070 --> 00:30:21.390
How do you hold that in tension?

764
00:30:22.471 --> 00:30:24.631
And I think at this stage of my life,

765
00:30:24.831 --> 00:30:27.012
I've come to the conclusion that people are people.

766
00:30:27.568 --> 00:30:43.782
capable of of a wide variety of things um you know it isn't this either or thing but you know another thing i don't know if i mentioned this to you in our email conversation or not you know i'm a person who wants to

767
00:30:43.802 --> 00:30:55.072
know and have assurances i'm not a person who has the gift of faith i'm not and i think that's part of the reason i which is like something catholics say which i always thought was like so so

768
00:30:55.352 --> 00:30:56.393
great and hilarious,

769
00:30:56.453 --> 00:30:56.773
you know,

770
00:30:56.893 --> 00:30:57.273
it's like,

771
00:30:57.573 --> 00:30:57.874
it's like,

772
00:30:58.254 --> 00:31:00.395
here's the reassurance for those of you who,

773
00:31:00.815 --> 00:31:01.416
who care,

774
00:31:01.796 --> 00:31:02.837
who still wonder,

775
00:31:03.037 --> 00:31:03.377
you know?

776
00:31:03.557 --> 00:31:03.757
Yeah.

777
00:31:03.997 --> 00:31:04.237
And,

778
00:31:04.317 --> 00:31:04.678
um,

779
00:31:05.958 --> 00:31:06.199
you know,

780
00:31:06.879 --> 00:31:06.999
I,

781
00:31:07.339 --> 00:31:07.459
I,

782
00:31:07.619 --> 00:31:07.740
I,

783
00:31:07.741 --> 00:31:11.342
I have a really hard time just like absolutely saying,

784
00:31:11.542 --> 00:31:11.862
yes,

785
00:31:12.162 --> 00:31:12.863
I'm sure,

786
00:31:13.163 --> 00:31:13.463
you know,

787
00:31:13.563 --> 00:31:15.964
I know this is what's going to happen when,

788
00:31:16.465 --> 00:31:16.665
when,

789
00:31:16.905 --> 00:31:17.986
when I die,

790
00:31:18.146 --> 00:31:18.446
you know?

791
00:31:18.886 --> 00:31:19.006
Yeah.

792
00:31:19.106 --> 00:31:19.246
And,

793
00:31:19.347 --> 00:31:21.488
and I think that's one of the reasons I have.

794
00:31:22.596 --> 00:31:22.836
you know,

795
00:31:22.936 --> 00:31:24.817
struggled with the idea of,

796
00:31:25.138 --> 00:31:25.258
yeah,

797
00:31:25.378 --> 00:31:25.758
I know.

798
00:31:25.798 --> 00:31:26.118
And yeah,

799
00:31:26.178 --> 00:31:27.959
I can absolutely commit to this,

800
00:31:28.059 --> 00:31:28.339
you know,

801
00:31:28.580 --> 00:31:30.521
which has me here where I am,

802
00:31:30.581 --> 00:31:33.322
which is pretty much agnostic.

803
00:31:33.863 --> 00:31:39.526
I do think there is a some kind of spiritual force in the universe.

804
00:31:39.966 --> 00:31:43.068
I don't really understand what it is.

805
00:31:43.809 --> 00:31:45.350
I'm very influenced,

806
00:31:46.530 --> 00:31:49.272
having grown up Catholic and in the Christian tradition.

807
00:31:49.820 --> 00:31:50.140
You know,

808
00:31:50.260 --> 00:31:52.701
very much so I would lean that way.

809
00:31:53.261 --> 00:31:53.521
But,

810
00:31:53.661 --> 00:31:53.921
you know,

811
00:31:53.961 --> 00:31:54.801
I'm still just like,

812
00:31:54.961 --> 00:31:55.582
I don't know.

813
00:31:55.842 --> 00:31:56.122
You know,

814
00:31:56.182 --> 00:31:57.822
there's this part of me that's like,

815
00:31:58.002 --> 00:31:58.562
I don't know.

816
00:31:58.702 --> 00:32:00.423
That's why I can't,

817
00:32:00.523 --> 00:32:00.803
you know,

818
00:32:00.903 --> 00:32:03.664
make that jump to atheism because I don't know.

819
00:32:04.444 --> 00:32:05.844
I don't know what happens.

820
00:32:05.924 --> 00:32:06.224
You know,

821
00:32:06.444 --> 00:32:09.945
I'm not comfortable saying I do.

822
00:32:10.486 --> 00:32:17.567
It's not even that I like having that space for possibility and to be surprised.

823
00:32:17.648 --> 00:32:19.328
And as much as

824
00:32:19.648 --> 00:32:25.950
I think that just is part of the universe is that we don't know,

825
00:32:26.050 --> 00:32:28.590
which leaves this space for there to be,

826
00:32:29.111 --> 00:32:30.151
or at least I don't know,

827
00:32:30.671 --> 00:32:34.032
which leaves this space for this,

828
00:32:34.332 --> 00:32:35.092
for discovery.

829
00:32:37.753 --> 00:32:37.873
So,

830
00:32:38.273 --> 00:32:38.553
you know,

831
00:32:38.693 --> 00:32:38.813
so,

832
00:32:39.173 --> 00:32:40.194
so that's kind of,

833
00:32:40.574 --> 00:32:44.075
that's kind of where I've ended up at least at this point in my life.

834
00:32:44.835 --> 00:32:45.595
Cause you know,

835
00:32:45.655 --> 00:32:46.555
who knows things,

836
00:32:46.815 --> 00:32:47.736
things can change.

837
00:32:48.156 --> 00:32:48.396
Yeah.

838
00:32:48.496 --> 00:32:48.816
You know,

839
00:32:48.876 --> 00:32:48.996
and.

840
00:32:49.256 --> 00:32:49.396
And,

841
00:32:49.636 --> 00:32:49.857
you know,

842
00:32:49.858 --> 00:32:50.537
it's interesting.

843
00:32:51.418 --> 00:32:56.562
My brother sent me a video clip of Keanu Reeves on

844
00:32:57.203 --> 00:32:58.163
Stephen Colbert.

845
00:32:58.224 --> 00:32:59.865
Stephen Colbert was asking like

846
00:33:00.405 --> 00:33:01.466
15 questions.

847
00:33:01.486 --> 00:33:02.107
And by the end,

848
00:33:02.127 --> 00:33:04.208
we'll all know the essence of who you are,

849
00:33:04.449 --> 00:33:04.789
you know.

850
00:33:06.570 --> 00:33:07.651
They were really silly.

851
00:33:07.671 --> 00:33:08.712
It was really funny.

852
00:33:09.093 --> 00:33:10.253
And I like Keanu Reeves.

853
00:33:10.274 --> 00:33:11.695
I think he's an interesting person.

854
00:33:11.875 --> 00:33:13.216
Colbert asked him,

855
00:33:13.997 --> 00:33:15.478
what do you think happens when we die?

856
00:33:16.339 --> 00:33:17.920
And he took this.

857
00:33:18.420 --> 00:33:19.660
pretty long pause.

858
00:33:19.800 --> 00:33:20.981
And then he said,

859
00:33:22.061 --> 00:33:24.322
I know that the people who love me will miss me.

860
00:33:24.562 --> 00:33:26.642
And I was so struck by that.

861
00:33:26.742 --> 00:33:27.283
I was like,

862
00:33:27.623 --> 00:33:29.343
that is something that's very true.

863
00:33:29.583 --> 00:33:31.264
That is something you can absolutely know,

864
00:33:31.804 --> 00:33:33.024
no matter where you come from.

865
00:33:33.144 --> 00:33:33.584
I don't know.

866
00:33:33.984 --> 00:33:37.045
It's there's a big,

867
00:33:37.325 --> 00:33:39.786
interesting world and universe out there.

868
00:33:39.866 --> 00:33:45.368
And there's so much to ponder and discover and commit to or not.

869
00:33:45.568 --> 00:33:46.548
I think that's part of.

870
00:33:46.828 --> 00:33:49.110
what makes people so interesting to me.

871
00:33:49.450 --> 00:33:49.650
Yeah.

872
00:33:50.671 --> 00:33:50.791
Well,

873
00:33:50.811 --> 00:33:55.295
I appreciate your honesty when it comes to having faith in something.

874
00:33:55.355 --> 00:33:58.838
It is really hard to put all your eggs in the basket,

875
00:33:58.858 --> 00:33:59.298
I guess,

876
00:33:59.338 --> 00:34:01.920
of something and trust it.

877
00:34:02.081 --> 00:34:03.322
I know for a while,

878
00:34:03.482 --> 00:34:05.864
most of my younger years,

879
00:34:06.064 --> 00:34:06.925
I always wondered,

880
00:34:06.965 --> 00:34:08.206
am I going to heaven?

881
00:34:08.506 --> 00:34:10.107
I asked Jesus into my heart,

882
00:34:10.127 --> 00:34:11.789
but am I really going to heaven?

883
00:34:12.609 --> 00:34:15.772
And it wasn't until I was going through my second divorce that

884
00:34:16.112 --> 00:34:20.435
I finally actually felt close to God and felt like

885
00:34:21.335 --> 00:34:30.701
I am going to heaven because I had come back to him from straying so long doing life the way I wanted to do it and it wasn't working.

886
00:34:31.021 --> 00:34:32.482
And I just really felt,

887
00:34:34.283 --> 00:34:36.504
I felt his presence there,

888
00:34:36.865 --> 00:34:38.185
if that makes any sense.

889
00:34:38.245 --> 00:34:41.187
I just felt that he loved me,

890
00:34:41.367 --> 00:34:42.508
even though I had made...

891
00:34:42.808 --> 00:34:43.549
made mistakes,

892
00:34:43.590 --> 00:34:44.912
just like you do with a child.

893
00:34:45.012 --> 00:34:45.312
You know,

894
00:34:45.333 --> 00:34:46.234
they made a mistake.

895
00:34:46.254 --> 00:34:47.897
You don't kick them out for it.

896
00:34:48.378 --> 00:34:52.565
You love them through it and you help them through what they're going through.

897
00:34:52.566 --> 00:34:54.168
And that's just really what I felt.

898
00:34:55.132 --> 00:35:00.954
in that moment of realizing that I had spit in my father's face for so long and said,

899
00:35:00.994 --> 00:35:02.755
I don't like the way you're doing things.

900
00:35:02.815 --> 00:35:03.075
You know,

901
00:35:03.155 --> 00:35:04.916
I'm going to do it the way I want to do it.

902
00:35:04.917 --> 00:35:05.536
And I did.

903
00:35:05.596 --> 00:35:09.678
And then I had moment where I needed to cry out to my dad and say,

904
00:35:09.738 --> 00:35:09.918
dad,

905
00:35:09.978 --> 00:35:10.578
please help me.

906
00:35:11.859 --> 00:35:13.239
I can't do this without you.

907
00:35:13.339 --> 00:35:14.380
And he didn't reject me.

908
00:35:15.640 --> 00:35:16.661
He brought me to him.

909
00:35:16.741 --> 00:35:17.581
He loved on me.

910
00:35:17.881 --> 00:35:22.883
And he helped me through that situation and told me that he will always take care of me.

911
00:35:23.804 --> 00:35:24.844
And he hasn't Stop.

912
00:35:25.244 --> 00:35:33.688
And that's why I think I cling so tightly to them is because I've actually felt what it's like to reject somebody,

913
00:35:34.388 --> 00:35:36.789
but still have them love you through that.

914
00:35:36.989 --> 00:35:40.650
And I don't think I ever really felt that kind of love before,

915
00:35:40.810 --> 00:35:41.971
not even from my family.

916
00:35:42.011 --> 00:35:44.072
And it's not that I had a terrible family.

917
00:35:44.732 --> 00:35:49.634
It's just they didn't know how to love me in the way that I needed to unconditionally.

918
00:35:50.334 --> 00:35:51.255
So I always felt,

919
00:35:51.355 --> 00:35:53.416
was I good enough for everybody?

920
00:35:53.576 --> 00:35:54.156
was I

921
00:35:54.708 --> 00:35:55.789
good enough for God.

922
00:35:55.949 --> 00:35:57.230
And I hated that feeling.

923
00:35:57.250 --> 00:35:59.212
So that's why I left in the first place.

924
00:35:59.633 --> 00:36:01.735
I just couldn't handle that pressure anymore.

925
00:36:02.576 --> 00:36:08.401
But then when I came back and I realized it's not about me and how I felt and am I good enough,

926
00:36:08.501 --> 00:36:09.542
I realized I wasn't.

927
00:36:10.063 --> 00:36:18.871
So it was so freeing for me that I was just able to allow him to love me even when I make stupid choices,

928
00:36:18.911 --> 00:36:19.632
which I still do.

929
00:36:20.632 --> 00:36:21.833
We all have our moment.

930
00:36:22.173 --> 00:36:22.693
Like you said,

931
00:36:22.733 --> 00:36:24.253
people are going to do what they're going to do.

932
00:36:24.973 --> 00:36:26.334
I believe as a Christian,

933
00:36:26.414 --> 00:36:29.415
I believe that because of what happened in the Garden of Eden,

934
00:36:29.815 --> 00:36:31.775
we're all born with a sinful nature.

935
00:36:32.356 --> 00:36:32.736
You know,

936
00:36:33.436 --> 00:36:35.616
some people amp it up through life and they,

937
00:36:35.857 --> 00:36:36.137
you know,

938
00:36:36.217 --> 00:36:37.737
continue to do awful things.

939
00:36:37.777 --> 00:36:43.059
And some people try really hard to do really good things and they hope that that'll get them to heaven.

940
00:36:43.779 --> 00:36:45.299
And according to what I believe,

941
00:36:45.399 --> 00:36:47.640
I don't believe that that does get you to heaven.

942
00:36:48.564 --> 00:36:52.446
But I'm not going to discourage people from wanting to do positive things,

943
00:36:52.866 --> 00:36:57.408
depending on the kind of relationship we have or what we're talking about at the moment.

944
00:36:57.488 --> 00:37:01.009
I might tell them that in a obviously a loving way,

945
00:37:01.069 --> 00:37:02.850
not like you're doing it wrong.

946
00:37:03.350 --> 00:37:03.631
But,

947
00:37:03.711 --> 00:37:03.951
you know,

948
00:37:03.991 --> 00:37:08.913
I might tell them my position or something and they can do whatever they want with that.

949
00:37:09.353 --> 00:37:12.494
But I would never discourage someone from doing something good,

950
00:37:12.634 --> 00:37:16.176
even if I didn't feel that the way they were doing it was.

951
00:37:16.536 --> 00:37:17.997
accurate to what I believe,

952
00:37:18.037 --> 00:37:18.478
I guess.

953
00:37:19.238 --> 00:37:19.358
So,

954
00:37:20.679 --> 00:37:20.819
yeah,

955
00:37:20.899 --> 00:37:21.200
I mean,

956
00:37:21.400 --> 00:37:23.701
we should all be striving to do good things.

957
00:37:23.801 --> 00:37:25.142
And I think deep down inside,

958
00:37:25.162 --> 00:37:30.246
we all realize that we have this ability to do something good,

959
00:37:30.726 --> 00:37:33.308
which is why we do want to do something good.

960
00:37:33.328 --> 00:37:35.390
And we feel good after we do it.

961
00:37:35.490 --> 00:37:37.351
And it makes us want to do it more.

962
00:37:37.692 --> 00:37:40.514
It's really hard to just have faith in things.

963
00:37:40.534 --> 00:37:41.574
And I will be honest,

964
00:37:41.594 --> 00:37:42.695
there are still moments.

965
00:37:43.216 --> 00:37:43.736
Not that I...

966
00:37:43.896 --> 00:37:47.457
don't believe in God or that I don't believe I'm going to heaven.

967
00:37:47.858 --> 00:37:49.438
But I have these moments of,

968
00:37:49.858 --> 00:37:49.979
well,

969
00:37:50.019 --> 00:37:51.679
what if I'm wrong about all this?

970
00:37:52.540 --> 00:37:56.521
And they're very fleeting moments because I think about it in the terms of,

971
00:37:56.581 --> 00:37:56.741
well,

972
00:37:56.861 --> 00:38:00.523
I've done it the other way and that I didn't enjoy at all.

973
00:38:00.803 --> 00:38:00.923
So

974
00:38:01.923 --> 00:38:04.705
I don't have any problems with the way I'm doing things now.

975
00:38:04.825 --> 00:38:05.685
So if I'm wrong,

976
00:38:06.745 --> 00:38:08.026
I guess I'm just wrong.

977
00:38:08.266 --> 00:38:09.887
It's not like I was like,

978
00:38:09.987 --> 00:38:10.307
oh no,

979
00:38:10.547 --> 00:38:12.908
I missed out on an opportunity to do this.

980
00:38:15.100 --> 00:38:18.182
You just got to figure out what you're going to do with that in that moment.

981
00:38:18.262 --> 00:38:19.543
Is it going to make you crumble?

982
00:38:19.663 --> 00:38:23.546
Is it going to keep you from pursuing life,

983
00:38:23.606 --> 00:38:24.546
from doing things?

984
00:38:24.547 --> 00:38:29.070
You just have to figure out how you're going to handle that curiosity,

985
00:38:29.150 --> 00:38:29.650
I guess.

986
00:38:30.711 --> 00:38:30.951
Yeah.

987
00:38:31.271 --> 00:38:31.411
Yeah.

988
00:38:31.531 --> 00:38:31.911
But I mean,

989
00:38:31.931 --> 00:38:34.974
that's just so profound what you've just shared.

990
00:38:35.774 --> 00:38:37.515
I don't remember the name of the person.

991
00:38:37.595 --> 00:38:39.777
There's a historical figure.

992
00:38:39.817 --> 00:38:42.799
I think he was a theologian or a philosopher.

993
00:38:43.099 --> 00:38:44.400
Basically what he said.

994
00:38:44.640 --> 00:38:48.403
is you can't know as a person,

995
00:38:48.844 --> 00:38:49.184
you know,

996
00:38:49.344 --> 00:38:51.185
living your limited existence,

997
00:38:51.666 --> 00:38:51.966
whether

998
00:38:52.527 --> 00:38:53.768
God is real or not.

999
00:38:54.488 --> 00:38:59.332
But if you live a virtuous life and a holy life and follow something,

1000
00:39:00.233 --> 00:39:01.113
it won't hurt you.

1001
00:39:01.614 --> 00:39:04.016
And it might bring some good into the world,

1002
00:39:04.076 --> 00:39:04.356
you know?

1003
00:39:04.476 --> 00:39:05.977
So it's basically one of these,

1004
00:39:05.997 --> 00:39:06.198
like,

1005
00:39:06.458 --> 00:39:10.261
there's no downside to living a good life where you,

1006
00:39:11.142 --> 00:39:11.462
you know,

1007
00:39:11.782 --> 00:39:13.524
do virtuous acts,

1008
00:39:13.784 --> 00:39:13.944
not

1009
00:39:14.104 --> 00:39:30.489
because you want to get a reward per se though i mean who doesn't like to get a reward um but um but that you know there's there's no downside to virtue basically and the other thing you said which i i also i

1010
00:39:30.490 --> 00:39:41.812
i absolutely agree with you and i remember hearing this in in mass one day where it was like it's not about you you know it's not about whether you um

1011
00:39:42.928 --> 00:39:43.169
you know,

1012
00:39:43.329 --> 00:39:44.510
whether God loves you,

1013
00:39:44.810 --> 00:39:46.791
it's not a question of whether God loves you.

1014
00:39:47.072 --> 00:39:49.313
The door on God's side is always open.

1015
00:39:49.754 --> 00:39:50.074
You know,

1016
00:39:50.434 --> 00:39:53.176
the question is whether you can receive it,

1017
00:39:53.356 --> 00:39:53.677
you know,

1018
00:39:53.977 --> 00:39:57.319
which is exactly like what you were just speaking about.

1019
00:39:59.217 --> 00:39:59.417
Yeah,

1020
00:39:59.797 --> 00:40:00.098
it's

1021
00:40:01.859 --> 00:40:07.223
I had to make my faith my own because my whole life I grew up in a Christian home.

1022
00:40:07.303 --> 00:40:08.724
So I knew all the stories.

1023
00:40:08.804 --> 00:40:10.625
I knew it all in my head,

1024
00:40:11.366 --> 00:40:15.248
but it hadn't actually reached my heart to a point where it really changed me.

1025
00:40:15.348 --> 00:40:22.794
The only reason I accepted him into my heart when I was 12 is because I was scared into it while watching an old

1026
00:40:23.374 --> 00:40:24.635
70s left behind movie.

1027
00:40:24.875 --> 00:40:26.977
And I didn't want to be left behind.

1028
00:40:27.561 --> 00:40:31.083
So that's what me and my brother did was accept him into our hearts.

1029
00:40:31.483 --> 00:40:34.524
But there wasn't this big thing that happened of,

1030
00:40:34.704 --> 00:40:34.824
oh,

1031
00:40:34.825 --> 00:40:37.345
I just felt different and everything.

1032
00:40:37.365 --> 00:40:38.606
There was no feelings.

1033
00:40:39.426 --> 00:40:41.147
And then not too long after,

1034
00:40:41.167 --> 00:40:43.908
my parents ended up getting divorced and our family split.

1035
00:40:43.948 --> 00:40:47.450
And there was just so much emotion that went into that whole situation.

1036
00:40:48.170 --> 00:40:49.511
And then I just started doing.

1037
00:40:49.711 --> 00:40:51.091
I wanted to be a people pleaser.

1038
00:40:51.171 --> 00:40:51.692
So I just,

1039
00:40:51.812 --> 00:40:53.813
that's what I did is I pleased people.

1040
00:40:54.213 --> 00:40:54.633
I did.

1041
00:40:54.933 --> 00:41:00.217
everything for them to make them love me and to enjoy being around me.

1042
00:41:00.417 --> 00:41:02.598
I didn't know who I was.

1043
00:41:02.879 --> 00:41:04.239
I'm still figuring that out.

1044
00:41:04.400 --> 00:41:09.283
It was just really frustrating and it just boiled to a head where I'm like,

1045
00:41:09.363 --> 00:41:09.603
okay,

1046
00:41:09.683 --> 00:41:10.464
I'm done with this.

1047
00:41:10.824 --> 00:41:12.825
I'm just done with everything.

1048
00:41:12.885 --> 00:41:13.266
I just,

1049
00:41:13.986 --> 00:41:18.029
I fractured completely and left it all.

1050
00:41:18.129 --> 00:41:19.750
I was going through my second divorce.

1051
00:41:20.691 --> 00:41:22.052
It really blindsided me,

1052
00:41:22.212 --> 00:41:23.593
but it got me thinking.

1053
00:41:24.417 --> 00:41:28.721
in a way where I realized if I'm going to come back to God,

1054
00:41:28.722 --> 00:41:29.682
it has to be because

1055
00:41:30.022 --> 00:41:32.804
I want to come to God,

1056
00:41:32.864 --> 00:41:35.307
not because I was told this is what you should do.

1057
00:41:36.287 --> 00:41:38.269
I was very sheltered spiritually.

1058
00:41:38.409 --> 00:41:39.790
I only knew of

1059
00:41:40.711 --> 00:41:42.032
Baptist Christianity,

1060
00:41:42.132 --> 00:41:42.613
I guess,

1061
00:41:42.793 --> 00:41:44.354
maybe Southern Baptist.

1062
00:41:44.815 --> 00:41:47.057
I didn't even branch out into the whole

1063
00:41:47.813 --> 00:41:48.053
you know,

1064
00:41:48.273 --> 00:41:51.615
learning about deliverance or speaking in tongues,

1065
00:41:51.735 --> 00:41:52.595
all these different things.

1066
00:41:52.635 --> 00:41:56.097
Like I didn't know enough about that other than this is stuff you don't touch.

1067
00:41:56.837 --> 00:41:58.798
So I was very sheltered with all that.

1068
00:41:58.878 --> 00:42:00.418
But when I came back to Christ,

1069
00:42:01.019 --> 00:42:04.380
I realized I needed to figure out who God is,

1070
00:42:04.880 --> 00:42:07.161
not who people are telling me he is.

1071
00:42:08.142 --> 00:42:15.685
And that was a profound moment for me where I realized I need to be more open to talking to people who may.

1072
00:42:16.325 --> 00:42:28.696
be different from me on things they believe because I need to know if the God that I think I'm serving is actually the true one from what is in the Bible or if I'm just following what someone else is telling me.

1073
00:42:28.716 --> 00:42:31.558
I never want to be stuck in that position again.

1074
00:42:31.759 --> 00:42:43.449
So that's why I'm trying to put myself out there more to talking with people that maybe I don't completely agree with or I just don't understand where they're coming from.

1075
00:42:44.013 --> 00:42:48.094
Because I want to be more open to understanding what they think.

1076
00:42:48.174 --> 00:42:51.075
Perhaps we have more in common than I thought we did.

1077
00:42:52.035 --> 00:42:58.077
So I've been trying really hard to be more aware of the fact that

1078
00:42:58.417 --> 00:43:00.117
I just want to know who God is.

1079
00:43:00.257 --> 00:43:01.998
I don't want people to tell me who he is.

1080
00:43:02.118 --> 00:43:04.219
I want him to tell me who he is.

1081
00:43:04.859 --> 00:43:08.740
So I read the Bible and I try not to read myself into it.

1082
00:43:09.120 --> 00:43:12.281
And I try to figure out exactly what he's telling me.

1083
00:43:12.501 --> 00:43:13.201
And if I talk...

1084
00:43:13.281 --> 00:43:14.042
to other people,

1085
00:43:14.342 --> 00:43:17.164
I try to line it up with what the scripture says.

1086
00:43:17.284 --> 00:43:18.465
If I have to ask questions,

1087
00:43:18.485 --> 00:43:19.406
I'll ask questions.

1088
00:43:19.947 --> 00:43:26.472
But I'm trying really hard not to be so judgmental and so closed-minded as I used to be.

1089
00:43:26.532 --> 00:43:28.714
I used to be very closed-minded.

1090
00:43:29.174 --> 00:43:32.937
Like we would not be having this conversation even five years ago.

1091
00:43:33.158 --> 00:43:34.499
That's how bad it was.

1092
00:43:34.899 --> 00:43:35.259
I just,

1093
00:43:35.600 --> 00:43:40.904
I didn't want to talk to people that may have different ideas than me,

1094
00:43:40.905 --> 00:43:41.585
you know.

1095
00:43:42.105 --> 00:43:42.385
just,

1096
00:43:42.505 --> 00:43:43.766
it was scary for me,

1097
00:43:44.506 --> 00:43:44.966
but I just,

1098
00:43:45.286 --> 00:43:46.927
I don't want to be that way anymore.

1099
00:43:47.027 --> 00:43:47.207
Yeah,

1100
00:43:47.347 --> 00:43:47.787
it is.

1101
00:43:47.867 --> 00:43:48.468
And it's like,

1102
00:43:48.848 --> 00:43:53.130
I don't want that to keep me from having a meaningful conversation with somebody,

1103
00:43:53.690 --> 00:43:58.132
maybe bringing something to it that maybe God wants to show them something.

1104
00:43:58.552 --> 00:44:01.033
Maybe there was something I had to say to this person.

1105
00:44:01.093 --> 00:44:01.853
Maybe there wasn't.

1106
00:44:01.893 --> 00:44:04.274
Maybe we were just having an amazing conversation.

1107
00:44:04.934 --> 00:44:05.255
I just,

1108
00:44:05.335 --> 00:44:07.475
I didn't want to be closed off to that anymore.

1109
00:44:08.416 --> 00:44:09.396
When I was younger,

1110
00:44:09.896 --> 00:44:11.237
especially in terms of...

1111
00:44:11.317 --> 00:44:12.638
political conversations.

1112
00:44:13.358 --> 00:44:14.019
I was right.

1113
00:44:15.379 --> 00:44:17.661
And if you disagree with me,

1114
00:44:17.721 --> 00:44:18.341
you were wrong.

1115
00:44:18.521 --> 00:44:23.904
And it was my job to show you the error of your ways and bring you around to my way of thinking.

1116
00:44:24.725 --> 00:44:25.745
That's exhausting.

1117
00:44:26.666 --> 00:44:27.666
It's not true.

1118
00:44:29.227 --> 00:44:29.467
I mean,

1119
00:44:29.487 --> 00:44:30.088
it's really,

1120
00:44:30.248 --> 00:44:31.769
it's really exhausting when,

1121
00:44:32.129 --> 00:44:32.369
you know,

1122
00:44:32.389 --> 00:44:33.570
you are responsible for,

1123
00:44:33.730 --> 00:44:34.030
you know,

1124
00:44:34.370 --> 00:44:36.071
getting people thinking the right way.

1125
00:44:37.812 --> 00:44:38.913
Who wants to

1126
00:44:39.533 --> 00:44:45.818
listen to someone who is completely unwilling to entertain,

1127
00:44:46.299 --> 00:44:47.360
to even listen,

1128
00:44:47.900 --> 00:44:49.662
whether or not they ever agree with you,

1129
00:44:49.722 --> 00:44:52.804
but to even listen to what the other person thinks.

1130
00:44:52.964 --> 00:44:53.184
And,

1131
00:44:53.425 --> 00:44:53.605
um,

1132
00:44:53.705 --> 00:44:54.185
you know,

1133
00:44:54.186 --> 00:44:55.026
you're never gonna,

1134
00:44:55.266 --> 00:44:55.526
um,

1135
00:44:56.547 --> 00:44:58.409
have a meaningful conversation.

1136
00:44:58.932 --> 00:45:02.675
that you then go back and think about later and think,

1137
00:45:02.715 --> 00:45:02.976
wow,

1138
00:45:03.016 --> 00:45:04.016
that was interesting.

1139
00:45:04.537 --> 00:45:04.777
I mean,

1140
00:45:04.837 --> 00:45:07.319
it's just like writing in a way.

1141
00:45:07.820 --> 00:45:07.980
Yeah.

1142
00:45:09.101 --> 00:45:09.221
Oh,

1143
00:45:09.301 --> 00:45:09.421
no,

1144
00:45:09.721 --> 00:45:11.323
that won't work for my story.

1145
00:45:11.463 --> 00:45:12.264
I can't do that.

1146
00:45:12.744 --> 00:45:12.904
Yeah.

1147
00:45:13.545 --> 00:45:14.025
That's like,

1148
00:45:14.085 --> 00:45:14.245
oh,

1149
00:45:14.486 --> 00:45:16.728
maybe that was actually a really good idea.

1150
00:45:16.928 --> 00:45:17.088
Yeah.

1151
00:45:17.208 --> 00:45:17.488
You know,

1152
00:45:17.748 --> 00:45:24.114
letting go of needing to be right has really made my life a lot easier.

1153
00:45:24.574 --> 00:45:25.715
And I think it's made,

1154
00:45:25.836 --> 00:45:26.256
it's not.

1155
00:45:26.436 --> 00:45:28.077
just that it's made my life easier,

1156
00:45:28.157 --> 00:45:30.419
but it's made me a more open person.

1157
00:45:31.239 --> 00:45:32.460
And it's made me,

1158
00:45:32.880 --> 00:45:33.280
I think,

1159
00:45:35.562 --> 00:45:37.723
a more pleasant person to be around.

1160
00:45:38.403 --> 00:45:38.844
And again,

1161
00:45:38.944 --> 00:45:42.506
not that it's our job in life to be pleasant for other people.

1162
00:45:43.146 --> 00:45:47.489
It's hard to be around somebody who's constantly just wanting to say,

1163
00:45:47.589 --> 00:45:47.709
oh,

1164
00:45:47.729 --> 00:45:47.869
well,

1165
00:45:47.929 --> 00:45:48.470
you're wrong.

1166
00:45:48.550 --> 00:45:49.530
And this is why.

1167
00:45:50.031 --> 00:45:51.892
So you don't want to hang out with that.

1168
00:45:53.208 --> 00:45:53.388
Yeah,

1169
00:45:53.608 --> 00:45:53.748
yeah.

1170
00:45:53.889 --> 00:45:54.429
And I mean,

1171
00:45:54.629 --> 00:45:58.271
one of the things I found really interesting when I was in school was the more

1172
00:45:59.072 --> 00:46:01.434
I study different faith traditions,

1173
00:46:01.454 --> 00:46:04.436
the more I found that whatever you believe about God,

1174
00:46:05.396 --> 00:46:10.360
there are some central ideas that pop up again and again and again,

1175
00:46:10.620 --> 00:46:10.920
you know,

1176
00:46:11.040 --> 00:46:12.621
like doing good works.

1177
00:46:12.761 --> 00:46:12.881
And,

1178
00:46:13.322 --> 00:46:13.642
you know,

1179
00:46:14.723 --> 00:46:22.668
if you aren't so caught up in all the parts of it or the mechanics of this tradition versus this tradition.

1180
00:46:23.088 --> 00:46:24.529
There's a lot there that's similar.

1181
00:46:26.329 --> 00:46:26.469
Yeah,

1182
00:46:26.470 --> 00:46:29.651
and it's a great jumping off point to talk to someone,

1183
00:46:29.751 --> 00:46:30.031
too,

1184
00:46:30.131 --> 00:46:30.471
and say,

1185
00:46:30.651 --> 00:46:30.791
well,

1186
00:46:30.811 --> 00:46:30.951
hey,

1187
00:46:31.492 --> 00:46:33.192
what exactly do you believe?

1188
00:46:33.753 --> 00:46:36.454
Because someone could be like me where they said,

1189
00:46:36.494 --> 00:46:36.614
oh,

1190
00:46:36.694 --> 00:46:37.394
I'm a Christian.

1191
00:46:37.974 --> 00:46:38.235
Okay,

1192
00:46:38.395 --> 00:46:38.655
well,

1193
00:46:39.135 --> 00:46:39.495
why?

1194
00:46:39.855 --> 00:46:39.995
Or,

1195
00:46:40.415 --> 00:46:40.656
you know,

1196
00:46:40.716 --> 00:46:41.656
what do you believe?

1197
00:46:42.256 --> 00:46:43.297
If you had asked me,

1198
00:46:43.457 --> 00:46:45.658
I don't even know what I would have said back in the day.

1199
00:46:45.718 --> 00:46:46.878
I know what I would say now.

1200
00:46:47.619 --> 00:46:50.680
But if you asked me back when I was even in college,

1201
00:46:50.720 --> 00:46:50.980
I don't.

1202
00:46:51.080 --> 00:46:56.682
think I'd know how to answer that other than what I had been fed my whole life.

1203
00:46:57.403 --> 00:46:59.003
But was it,

1204
00:46:59.083 --> 00:47:00.684
is that what I truly believe?

1205
00:47:01.244 --> 00:47:02.545
I don't think I would have known.

1206
00:47:03.125 --> 00:47:05.846
And it would be the same as talking to someone who says,

1207
00:47:05.986 --> 00:47:06.126
oh,

1208
00:47:06.747 --> 00:47:08.107
I go to a Catholic church.

1209
00:47:08.167 --> 00:47:08.287
Oh,

1210
00:47:08.307 --> 00:47:08.427
well,

1211
00:47:08.428 --> 00:47:09.328
what do you believe?

1212
00:47:09.788 --> 00:47:12.249
They might not actually believe Catholic doctrine.

1213
00:47:12.269 --> 00:47:13.669
They just grew up Catholic.

1214
00:47:14.090 --> 00:47:19.332
And you might learn something new about them that maybe that's not truly where they believe.

1215
00:47:20.580 --> 00:47:20.700
Yeah,

1216
00:47:20.720 --> 00:47:25.785
we can't be so quick to just leave the labels on people when they say,

1217
00:47:25.885 --> 00:47:26.005
oh,

1218
00:47:26.265 --> 00:47:26.385
well,

1219
00:47:26.405 --> 00:47:27.506
this is what I believe.

1220
00:47:28.207 --> 00:47:29.988
And be so closed minded to say,

1221
00:47:30.068 --> 00:47:30.208
oh,

1222
00:47:30.209 --> 00:47:30.328
OK,

1223
00:47:30.549 --> 00:47:30.689
well,

1224
00:47:30.729 --> 00:47:32.150
then I'm not talking to you.

1225
00:47:34.352 --> 00:47:38.776
It's our preconceptions of what we think something is.

1226
00:47:39.016 --> 00:47:40.737
It can be very limiting.

1227
00:47:41.558 --> 00:47:41.698
And,

1228
00:47:41.699 --> 00:47:41.938
you know,

1229
00:47:42.018 --> 00:47:42.859
sometimes like,

1230
00:47:42.879 --> 00:47:43.239
you know,

1231
00:47:44.801 --> 00:47:48.344
somebody believes something and you just know that's not for you.

1232
00:47:49.104 --> 00:47:55.528
somebody makes a suggestion with your writing and you just know that's not going to work for what you're writing.

1233
00:47:55.648 --> 00:47:56.308
There's that too.

1234
00:47:56.408 --> 00:47:58.970
So it's just holding those things in tension,

1235
00:47:59.170 --> 00:47:59.610
I think,

1236
00:47:59.890 --> 00:48:01.291
as we navigate life.

1237
00:48:02.011 --> 00:48:02.171
Yeah.

1238
00:48:03.052 --> 00:48:03.232
Yeah,

1239
00:48:03.492 --> 00:48:03.932
I agree.

1240
00:48:04.353 --> 00:48:04.493
Well,

1241
00:48:04.733 --> 00:48:04.973
Anne,

1242
00:48:05.013 --> 00:48:07.774
this has been a very exciting conversation.

1243
00:48:08.014 --> 00:48:08.295
I mean,

1244
00:48:08.315 --> 00:48:17.920
we started off talking about books and we ended up talking about theology and somehow they both managed to be cohesive and work together.

1245
00:48:18.280 --> 00:48:21.964
in varying ideas of how to live life.

1246
00:48:22.704 --> 00:48:26.628
I absolutely love when conversations do those kinds of things.

1247
00:48:26.768 --> 00:48:33.294
This is what happens when you reach out and you talk to people and just get to know each other.

1248
00:48:33.674 --> 00:48:35.696
You don't have to have everything figured out.

1249
00:48:35.776 --> 00:48:38.459
You don't have to believe the same things.

1250
00:48:38.499 --> 00:48:39.600
You can have a healthy,

1251
00:48:39.740 --> 00:48:44.064
meaningful conversation with somebody and leave.

1252
00:48:44.440 --> 00:48:45.561
agreeing to disagree.

1253
00:48:45.661 --> 00:48:48.002
Maybe you might pick up something new from that person.

1254
00:48:48.042 --> 00:48:48.642
Maybe you won't,

1255
00:48:49.482 --> 00:48:51.363
but we have to be willing to try.

1256
00:48:52.404 --> 00:48:54.224
And that's what makes us human.

1257
00:48:54.344 --> 00:48:55.905
That's what makes us relational.

1258
00:48:56.145 --> 00:49:02.508
And that's what makes life meaningful is meeting new people and seeing where they come from.

1259
00:49:02.628 --> 00:49:06.310
So thank you again for being willing to come on and talking with me.

1260
00:49:06.990 --> 00:49:07.210
Well,

1261
00:49:07.330 --> 00:49:08.851
thank you for willing to have me.

1262
00:49:09.751 --> 00:49:11.072
I never would have thought.

1263
00:49:11.212 --> 00:49:13.294
that writing and theology would dovetail.

1264
00:49:13.354 --> 00:49:14.755
No,

1265
00:49:15.315 --> 00:49:15.736
me neither.

1266
00:49:16.717 --> 00:49:17.517
Interestingly,

1267
00:49:17.597 --> 00:49:22.121
and so almost like two pieces fitting together as they have in this conversation.

1268
00:49:22.181 --> 00:49:22.842
So thank you.

1269
00:49:23.082 --> 00:49:23.763
Thank you so much.

1270
00:49:23.903 --> 00:49:24.103
Yeah.

1271
00:49:24.323 --> 00:49:26.365
And if people want to read your books,

1272
00:49:26.425 --> 00:49:27.626
where can they go to find them?

1273
00:49:27.906 --> 00:49:29.487
All my books are on Amazon.

1274
00:49:29.687 --> 00:49:31.629
And if a person has Kindle Unlimited,

1275
00:49:31.649 --> 00:49:32.750
they can read them for free.

1276
00:49:33.310 --> 00:49:34.411
I also have a website,

1277
00:49:34.511 --> 00:49:36.353
which is amgeber.com.

1278
00:49:37.194 --> 00:49:37.594
Awesome.

1279
00:49:38.034 --> 00:49:38.155
Well,

1280
00:49:38.195 --> 00:49:38.815
thank you again,

1281
00:49:38.915 --> 00:49:39.075
Anne,

1282
00:49:39.155 --> 00:49:39.796
for coming on.

1283
00:49:40.592 --> 00:49:41.673
Thank you so much.

1284
00:49:41.893 --> 00:49:45.657
If this episode inspired you to step out of your comfort zone,

1285
00:49:45.897 --> 00:49:47.078
I'd love to hear from you.

1286
00:49:47.338 --> 00:49:49.801
Feel free to leave a comment or a review.

1287
00:49:50.081 --> 00:49:51.863
You'll find the link in the show notes.

1288
00:49:52.463 --> 00:49:54.065
Thanks again for joining me today.

1289
00:49:54.545 --> 00:49:56.447
I look forward to our next conversation.