Airbrushed Jesus vs. the Real Jesus: A Conversation About True Faith

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Is your idea of Jesus airbrushed or do you know the true

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Jesus?

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This week's guest is

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Phil Haig.

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He is the pastor of Ransom Church in Sioux Falls,

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South Dakota.

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And man,

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is he on a mission to share with the world who the true Jesus is.

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There are so many versions of him,

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but he is here to shatter all that.

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and to explain to us the importance of knowing who Jesus truly is,

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not the version we think he is,

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but who he really is from the Bible's perspective.

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My name is Anna Murby.

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This is Honest Christian Conversation.

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If this is your first time listening to the podcast,

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thank you for spending your time with me today.

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For all returning listeners,

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I'm glad you're back.

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After the episode,

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please leave a review for the podcast if you haven't already done so.

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If you have,

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thanks so much.

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I appreciate reading your encouraging comments.

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They help me improve the content for you all.

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Thanks for your support.

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God bless and enjoy the show.

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Phil,

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thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

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Oh,

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my privilege.

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Such a pleasure.

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Yes,

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I was very excited to talk to you because when you reached out to ask to be a guest,

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I saw that you were questioning your faith and why you believe the things you believed.

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And that's how I felt my whole life.

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So I really resonated with that part of your story.

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And then I saw in your bio on Podmatch that you have a deep love for your family.

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And that's very important for men to have.

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And unfortunately,

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men have not been uplifted in the world lately to where that is.

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something they feel they can be proud of.

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So

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I also was impressed by that and knew that I was going to have you on.

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But before we get started on what you do with your ministry and your book,

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tell us a little bit about who you are.

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Yeah.

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So I am the third of four adopted kids.

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I am the only boy in the family,

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two older sisters,

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one younger,

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and raised in a home that,

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you know,

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Faith was part of it.

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Church was part of it.

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My dad had a real passion for us to know the Lord,

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but it was an environment where it got because of his desire,

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because of his passion,

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and maybe because of his understanding of faith,

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it became a fairly legalistic environment.

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And so I can't speak for my sisters and how they processed it,

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but

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I'm wired to want to perform,

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produce,

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do well,

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get the gold star.

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And so that was my approach to faith was like,

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how do I?

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how do I do this thing?

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I had a real desire to know Jesus deeply,

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to have a deep relationship with God,

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but it all was manifested through what am I supposed to be doing?

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How am I supposed to be living?

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Yeah.

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Sympathico.

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I completely get that.

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Yeah.

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So meanwhile,

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I'm being exposed to things throughout my life.

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Pornography was a big one for a while in my life.

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Me too.

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And so you're on the one hand living this.

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this life you want.

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On the other hand,

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searching for what you're not finding in your faith in other things.

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And there was this wrestling match,

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this tension.

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So I was constantly going back and forth between like wandering,

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repenting,

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trying to do the right thing and back and forth.

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So when God called me to ministry after my senior year of high school,

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I wanted nothing to do with that.

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I mean,

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nothing.

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I had,

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I like,

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I wanted all the good parts of Jesus I knew about,

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but I

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I also had a plan for my life.

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And,

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you know,

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I didn't know the plans he had for me,

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but I knew the plans I had for me.

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And I was excited about him.

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And so,

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but I wanted to obey.

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There was that,

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I want to obey.

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And so I ended up going to college.

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And my freshman year of college,

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I was at Oklahoma Wesleyan University and I was studying for ministry and also deciding that

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I just thought this whole Christianity thing was bunk at the same time.

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And so I,

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at the end of that semester or the end of that year,

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I,

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I quit ministry.

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I quit

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on my faith.

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I walked away and I just thought about that list and I ran to that and I rebelled for a while.

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And so I'm a guy who,

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you know,

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looked to faith for answers,

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thought there's got to be more,

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went searching in the world,

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found it's not there.

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And there was a moment near the end of that summer where I had a pretty profound experience where I woke up pretty miserable.

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I woke up,

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I didn't remember the party I'd been at the night before.

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I didn't remember how getting home,

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I just remember being pretty empty.

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And I felt like the Holy Spirit spoke into my life and asked me why I thought the answer to hypocrisy was hypocrisy.

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And it was the first time it occurred to me

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I've been trying to do religion but never get to know Jesus.

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And I,

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I've,

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I've done,

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he's my savior,

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but he's not my Lord.

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I have,

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I have a major Lordship issue.

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I've never surrendered to him.

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And,

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and that moment changed my life.

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It set me on a new path that I'm on now.

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Yeah.

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Wow.

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Yeah.

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I completely resonate with what you were saying from the addiction to pornography to the walking away from the faith and yeah,

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being.

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legalistic family,

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whether it was well-intentioned or not,

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and just having questions and not feeling like I was doing enough.

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That was always my thing.

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I wanted to not make waves.

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I didn't want to make anyone upset with me.

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I just wanted to do the right thing.

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And I wanted God to always be proud of me.

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But at the same time,

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I also did the hypocritical thing too.

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And,

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you know,

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I was looking at pornography,

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but I was judging the people in the videos.

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I was judging other people for their sins.

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And yeah,

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I...

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completely agree and resonate with everything you said.

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So you denied the calling that God seemed to have had on your heart to be a pastor back when you were younger,

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but you are a pastor now of Ransom Church in Sioux Falls,

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South Dakota.

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So when did you finally allow God to be the lordship of your life and listen to that call?

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Yeah,

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it's been an ongoing journey.

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So going back to that post high school experience,

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I realized in that moment that God had to be more in my life.

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But I kind of assumed at that point,

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well,

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I know enough about God that he'll forgive me.

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But the ministry thing,

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that's over.

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And I remember my youth pastor at the time,

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I was one semester into my sophomore year.

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I was partway through the semester.

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He called me to his office and he said,

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what are you doing here?

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And I said,

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what do you mean?

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What am I doing here?

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You called this meeting.

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And he said,

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no,

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no,

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I mean,

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like,

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what are you doing in Sioux Falls?

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Why are you not following God's call?

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And it never occurred to me that

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God's forgiveness was so complete that he would still have that calling on my life.

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And so I ended up transferring back to Oklahoma Wesleyan second semester of my sophomore year,

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following through with that call.

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But there's been ups and downs.

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You know,

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when God called me into ministry,

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I didn't want to do that.

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When God called me to my first pastorate in North Carolina at the small church,

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that was not my dream job.

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when he called me to step out of youth ministry and plant a church.

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I didn't want to do that either.

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You know,

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every step of the journey has been like,

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oh,

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yeah,

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God,

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I'm surrendered.

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I'm totally surrendered.

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And he's like,

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well,

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how about this?

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And I'm like,

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well,

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but what about that?

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And I have to it's like I have to re-wrestle down his lordship in my life because left to myself,

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I just take over control.

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It's hard when God calls you to do something you don't want to do.

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Yeah.

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calls us to do things we do want to do.

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I mean,

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think of all the people who are like,

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I have all these grand plans I want to do for the Lord,

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for his kingdom.

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How often do they get to do those things?

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He always calls us to do things we don't want to do.

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The annoying thing about how God works is like,

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I know I need to be more patient.

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And so I pray for patience and God gives me opportunities to be patient.

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Yes,

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yes.

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And I'm like,

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oh,

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this whole thing's a refinement thing.

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Yeah.

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See,

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I wanted it to be like a rewards thing.

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Like

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I follow these rules,

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I get these rewards.

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And it's actually not that it's actually him shaping me into his image instead of me creating an image of him that works for my for my life.

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And so,

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yeah,

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God's never asked me to do something that I was excited about when he asked.

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I would in hindsight,

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I can look in the mirror and go,

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I'm so glad I made the choices I made.

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I'm so glad I'm on his path.

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It truly is better.

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but

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when he asks it,

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it just,

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I mean,

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the last time God,

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the last thing God said to me,

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honestly,

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in my prayer life was,

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hey,

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I've got something for you coming and you're going to hate it.

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And I'm like,

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well,

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thanks for at least being honest with me.

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You know,

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this is great.

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This is great that we,

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so I'm ready.

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I'm waiting for,

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there's something coming down the pipe and I don't want to do it.

275
00:09:05.453 --> 00:09:06.155
And he's already told me,

276
00:09:06.218 --> 00:09:07.155
but whatever it is,

277
00:09:07.218 --> 00:09:12.624
I'll do it because I've learned enough that it's never worth it to run the other way.

278
00:09:14.327 --> 00:09:15.687
Running from his will is so much.

279
00:09:17.080 --> 00:09:18.862
less meaningful than being in the center of it.

280
00:09:19.163 --> 00:09:19.342
Yeah.

281
00:09:19.762 --> 00:09:19.964
Yeah.

282
00:09:20.384 --> 00:09:20.503
I,

283
00:09:21.425 --> 00:09:28.569
God's got a new thing that he's planning on doing with me and the podcast for the next season.

284
00:09:28.975 --> 00:09:33.889
I've gone through three different ideas that I had for it and thought I had it all.

285
00:09:34.092 --> 00:09:35.733
This is what he wants me to do.

286
00:09:36.217 --> 00:09:38.061
And then a sermon happened at our church,

287
00:09:38.108 --> 00:09:44.139
which confirmed something that I had already felt a few days earlier was and dismissed immediately as no,

288
00:09:44.467 --> 00:09:45.530
I'm not ready for that.

289
00:09:45.827 --> 00:09:46.342
And.

290
00:09:46.700 --> 00:09:47.481
The sermon,

291
00:09:47.541 --> 00:09:50.945
I started crying because I really felt like God was solidifying,

292
00:09:50.964 --> 00:09:51.085
no,

293
00:09:51.624 --> 00:09:52.605
you will be okay.

294
00:09:52.745 --> 00:09:53.308
And I'm like,

295
00:09:53.309 --> 00:09:53.425
no,

296
00:09:53.527 --> 00:09:54.027
I won't.

297
00:09:54.406 --> 00:09:55.929
I really can't do this.

298
00:09:56.734 --> 00:09:56.851
So,

299
00:09:57.452 --> 00:09:57.593
yeah,

300
00:09:57.788 --> 00:09:59.554
I'm definitely nervous about that.

301
00:09:59.671 --> 00:10:01.054
And that would probably be my

302
00:10:01.452 --> 00:10:02.117
God saying,

303
00:10:02.476 --> 00:10:05.499
you got something coming and you're really not going to like it.

304
00:10:07.745 --> 00:10:10.007
And that's so much a faith for so many people.

305
00:10:11.048 --> 00:10:13.112
We want God's benefits on our terms.

306
00:10:13.730 --> 00:10:14.991
And that's just not how it works.

307
00:10:15.495 --> 00:10:16.675
Yeah.

308
00:10:17.058 --> 00:10:17.394
Ouch.

309
00:10:17.792 --> 00:10:18.597
That's yeah,

310
00:10:18.659 --> 00:10:19.839
that's absolutely true.

311
00:10:20.698 --> 00:10:22.120
We treat them like a genie.

312
00:10:22.402 --> 00:10:23.675
We may not intend to,

313
00:10:24.175 --> 00:10:25.362
but I know I have.

314
00:10:25.644 --> 00:10:28.706
And I've tried to be more intentional on not doing that.

315
00:10:29.019 --> 00:10:33.003
or at the very least saying after I'm done demanding,

316
00:10:33.128 --> 00:10:33.816
quote unquote,

317
00:10:33.831 --> 00:10:34.831
the things that I want,

318
00:10:34.956 --> 00:10:35.425
I will say,

319
00:10:35.519 --> 00:10:36.019
but in.

320
00:10:36.381 --> 00:10:38.282
all I want what you want done.

321
00:10:38.464 --> 00:10:41.308
So please help me to be accepting of that.

322
00:10:41.527 --> 00:10:41.808
Yeah.

323
00:10:42.007 --> 00:10:44.589
One of the major pictures I paint in our book is this,

324
00:10:45.808 --> 00:10:48.714
when we create Jesus in the image that works for us,

325
00:10:49.034 --> 00:10:54.073
we end up holding him responsible for promises he never made,

326
00:10:55.105 --> 00:10:58.402
being angry when he doesn't keep promises we actually made to ourselves,

327
00:10:58.761 --> 00:11:03.620
and then questioning his goodness because he didn't live up to the picture we painted in our minds,

328
00:11:03.621 --> 00:11:05.183
but that's never who he was in the first place.

329
00:11:05.495 --> 00:11:05.683
Yeah.

330
00:11:06.081 --> 00:11:06.241
Yep,

331
00:11:06.661 --> 00:11:07.861
absolutely right.

332
00:11:08.482 --> 00:11:08.642
And

333
00:11:10.722 --> 00:11:15.562
I know I am guilty of trying to hold him to promises he never made.

334
00:11:16.101 --> 00:11:22.327
And I'm sure there's listeners right now who are slumping in their chairs because they've also been there.

335
00:11:22.671 --> 00:11:24.905
Pretty sure we all have been there at one point.

336
00:11:25.249 --> 00:11:29.249
Maybe it was the way we were raised and how we were taught to look at God.

337
00:11:29.343 --> 00:11:30.671
Maybe it's just,

338
00:11:30.874 --> 00:11:31.124
you know,

339
00:11:31.202 --> 00:11:32.343
we've heard that he loves,

340
00:11:32.344 --> 00:11:33.249
he cares about us,

341
00:11:33.265 --> 00:11:35.093
he wants what's good for us.

342
00:11:35.409 --> 00:11:36.510
So we think,

343
00:11:36.611 --> 00:11:36.911
well,

344
00:11:37.011 --> 00:11:40.074
if I really want this new whatever,

345
00:11:40.554 --> 00:11:41.554
he must want it too,

346
00:11:41.636 --> 00:11:42.937
because it'll make me happy.

347
00:11:43.417 --> 00:11:44.535
It'll make him happy.

348
00:11:44.941 --> 00:11:48.003
And we've got that all wrong and backwards.

349
00:11:48.722 --> 00:11:48.878
Yeah.

350
00:11:49.042 --> 00:11:49.285
I mean,

351
00:11:49.363 --> 00:11:54.503
one of the things we try to teach our people at our church is that God's primary desire is not that you would be happy.

352
00:11:54.566 --> 00:11:55.457
It's that you would be holy.

353
00:11:57.191 --> 00:12:00.128
And when you choose to follow him and when he refines you,

354
00:12:00.175 --> 00:12:03.191
you will find a joy that so exceeds happiness.

355
00:12:03.238 --> 00:12:04.144
Happiness is...

356
00:12:04.785 --> 00:12:05.005
I mean,

357
00:12:05.025 --> 00:12:06.367
by the very word that she used,

358
00:12:06.527 --> 00:12:08.449
happiness is based on our happenings.

359
00:12:08.709 --> 00:12:10.791
So if things are happening the way that I like,

360
00:12:10.932 --> 00:12:11.670
I feel happy.

361
00:12:11.791 --> 00:12:14.092
Joy is despite circumstance.

362
00:12:14.334 --> 00:12:18.436
And the only true joy is found in the holiness that can be found in him.

363
00:12:18.498 --> 00:12:20.279
But we chase happiness instead of holiness.

364
00:12:20.280 --> 00:12:21.264
And that's part of the problem.

365
00:12:21.436 --> 00:12:21.623
Yeah.

366
00:12:22.045 --> 00:12:22.170
Yeah,

367
00:12:22.248 --> 00:12:22.701
I agree.

368
00:12:23.076 --> 00:12:26.701
So how long have you been the pastor of Ransom Church?

369
00:12:27.092 --> 00:12:27.873
And did you,

370
00:12:29.873 --> 00:12:30.217
did you?

371
00:12:30.817 --> 00:12:36.679
build the church or was it already established and they asked you to be the pastor?

372
00:12:36.937 --> 00:12:37.058
Yeah,

373
00:12:37.120 --> 00:12:37.237
no,

374
00:12:37.319 --> 00:12:39.077
my wife and I are co-founders.

375
00:12:40.296 --> 00:12:41.921
We planted the church in

376
00:12:42.976 --> 00:12:45.163
March of 2009 with one other couple.

377
00:12:45.757 --> 00:12:48.413
That's a whole story about a wrestling match with God.

378
00:12:48.507 --> 00:12:51.976
And it took over a year for us to say yes.

379
00:12:52.007 --> 00:12:52.898
But once we said yes,

380
00:12:53.069 --> 00:12:55.257
just time after time and his hand was on it.

381
00:12:55.366 --> 00:12:56.866
And he gave us a very clear vision.

382
00:12:57.210 --> 00:12:59.679
We had a weekend where we prayed about the church.

383
00:13:00.005 --> 00:13:00.546
And we said,

384
00:13:00.566 --> 00:13:01.326
what is this even going to be?

385
00:13:01.687 --> 00:13:01.847
Like,

386
00:13:02.228 --> 00:13:02.929
why this church?

387
00:13:03.048 --> 00:13:03.570
We agreed,

388
00:13:03.730 --> 00:13:03.849
OK,

389
00:13:03.968 --> 00:13:04.652
you pray about it.

390
00:13:04.710 --> 00:13:05.390
I'll pray about it.

391
00:13:05.652 --> 00:13:06.409
And on Sunday night,

392
00:13:06.410 --> 00:13:07.030
we'll come back together.

393
00:13:07.050 --> 00:13:07.792
We'll talk about it.

394
00:13:07.933 --> 00:13:08.777
And we're not,

395
00:13:09.175 --> 00:13:10.292
don't talk the rest of the week about it.

396
00:13:10.293 --> 00:13:10.636
We're going to.

397
00:13:10.995 --> 00:13:13.120
So I was praying and I felt like the Lord said,

398
00:13:13.198 --> 00:13:14.636
I want you to set captives free.

399
00:13:15.862 --> 00:13:17.144
And that was all he gave me that weekend.

400
00:13:17.269 --> 00:13:24.191
And so we came back on Sunday and I let my wife go first because I was absolutely convinced that whatever she had was not going to be as great as setting captives free.

401
00:13:24.925 --> 00:13:25.737
And so I was like,

402
00:13:26.112 --> 00:13:26.691
going to let her go.

403
00:13:26.737 --> 00:13:27.347
And I was going to be like,

404
00:13:27.659 --> 00:13:28.237
that's cute.

405
00:13:28.269 --> 00:13:29.050
But how about this?

406
00:13:29.191 --> 00:13:29.394
Boom.

407
00:13:29.477 --> 00:13:29.717
you know,

408
00:13:30.057 --> 00:13:30.557
and so I said,

409
00:13:30.558 --> 00:13:31.017
you go first.

410
00:13:31.018 --> 00:13:31.457
And she said,

411
00:13:31.497 --> 00:13:31.618
well,

412
00:13:31.778 --> 00:13:32.918
God only gave me one thing.

413
00:13:32.938 --> 00:13:34.637
He really wants us to set captives free.

414
00:13:34.836 --> 00:13:35.399
And I went,

415
00:13:35.719 --> 00:13:36.938
that's pretty on the nose.

416
00:13:37.157 --> 00:13:39.579
And so we began to wrestle that out.

417
00:13:39.602 --> 00:13:43.797
And out of that came our vision and values for the church that we want to help people worship free of inhibition,

418
00:13:44.063 --> 00:13:44.758
live free of sin,

419
00:13:45.157 --> 00:13:48.180
serve free of self so they can be set free to be who God made them to be.

420
00:13:48.243 --> 00:13:52.055
We want to plant a church that's holistically focused on not just salvation,

421
00:13:52.086 --> 00:13:54.602
but your whole identity and holiness and walking towards him.

422
00:13:55.217 --> 00:13:55.518
So yeah,

423
00:13:55.519 --> 00:14:01.946
we planted in March 09 and God did some miraculous things and we've been leading it for now 16 plus years.

424
00:14:02.723 --> 00:14:04.563
It's been one of the hardest things I've ever done in my life,

425
00:14:04.610 --> 00:14:05.891
but also such an adventure.

426
00:14:05.930 --> 00:14:06.508
At 18,

427
00:14:06.649 --> 00:14:07.305
out of our church,

428
00:14:07.368 --> 00:14:08.391
we launched the Awaken

429
00:14:08.868 --> 00:14:10.008
Church Planner Network,

430
00:14:10.329 --> 00:14:12.977
which was going to just start as a ministry of our church and ended up,

431
00:14:13.258 --> 00:14:18.946
it's grown so much now that it's outgrown us and I'm on the board of that church planner network.

432
00:14:19.305 --> 00:14:20.149
It's just been really,

433
00:14:20.164 --> 00:14:21.118
really fun to watch God,

434
00:14:21.805 --> 00:14:23.118
see what God can do with obedience.

435
00:14:28.369 --> 00:14:29.170
Hey friends,

436
00:14:29.450 --> 00:14:33.254
I wanted to tell you about my personal experience with Exodus Strong.

437
00:14:33.594 --> 00:14:35.074
If you aren't sure what it's about,

438
00:14:35.297 --> 00:14:41.539
it's a biblical and holistic supplement that has seven herbs and that's it.

439
00:14:41.844 --> 00:14:43.508
This is an amazing product.

440
00:14:43.766 --> 00:14:45.211
Since I have been taking it,

441
00:14:45.461 --> 00:14:51.617
I have not felt anger towards my children or my husband nearly as much as I used to.

442
00:14:51.945 --> 00:14:53.976
The anger fits are practically gone.

443
00:14:54.070 --> 00:14:55.148
Hallelujah.

444
00:14:55.865 --> 00:14:58.388
I know my family is singing those praises.

445
00:14:58.628 --> 00:15:01.069
I feel like a completely different woman.

446
00:15:01.268 --> 00:15:02.472
I feel more relaxed,

447
00:15:02.550 --> 00:15:03.491
more even-keeled.

448
00:15:03.854 --> 00:15:05.034
I'm sleeping better.

449
00:15:05.901 --> 00:15:07.101
feeling more focused,

450
00:15:07.141 --> 00:15:10.061
which is great because I'm learning a second language.

451
00:15:10.221 --> 00:15:16.885
And I just overall feel like a better person than I did before when I was full of my anger.

452
00:15:17.206 --> 00:15:20.526
And I am so excited to share this with you.

453
00:15:20.901 --> 00:15:26.229
The prayer guide that comes along with it is also a blessing that keeps you close to God.

454
00:15:26.385 --> 00:15:32.432
I feel more close to God since I have been more regulated in my emotional state.

455
00:15:32.713 --> 00:15:34.494
If you need help focusing,

456
00:15:34.596 --> 00:15:36.557
if you need help with your stress levels,

457
00:15:36.658 --> 00:15:38.760
if you need help with your blood sugar levels,

458
00:15:38.998 --> 00:15:41.342
this product is going to be great for you.

459
00:15:41.764 --> 00:15:43.225
I encourage you to check it out.

460
00:15:43.561 --> 00:15:45.108
The link will be in the show notes.

461
00:15:45.569 --> 00:15:49.131
And if you want to know more about the founder of Exodus Strong,

462
00:15:49.397 --> 00:15:54.131
go back and listen to the episode that I did for the podcast with Rob Rene.

463
00:15:54.600 --> 00:15:57.178
You are going to be so blessed.

464
00:15:57.491 --> 00:15:57.678
Yeah.

465
00:15:58.162 --> 00:15:58.303
Yeah.

466
00:15:58.600 --> 00:16:00.225
He does some amazing things.

467
00:16:00.397 --> 00:16:00.522
one

468
00:16:00.937 --> 00:16:02.538
All he gets from us is a,

469
00:16:03.218 --> 00:16:03.478
okay,

470
00:16:03.578 --> 00:16:03.918
God,

471
00:16:04.017 --> 00:16:04.777
I'll listen to you.

472
00:16:05.679 --> 00:16:08.359
That's like our little tiny mustard seed of faith,

473
00:16:08.617 --> 00:16:09.097
I guess.

474
00:16:09.379 --> 00:16:09.636
Just,

475
00:16:09.777 --> 00:16:10.019
okay,

476
00:16:10.121 --> 00:16:10.558
fine.

477
00:16:10.863 --> 00:16:12.136
I'll do what you want me to do.

478
00:16:12.761 --> 00:16:16.004
And then he shows up and he does miraculous things.

479
00:16:16.043 --> 00:16:26.558
And then that just increases our faith and our love of him because we know that he does have good plans for us and we may not understand what they are at the moment.

480
00:16:26.645 --> 00:16:29.648
but we can trust him because he's always with us.

481
00:16:29.968 --> 00:16:30.750
And he does,

482
00:16:31.210 --> 00:16:32.050
at the end of the day,

483
00:16:32.191 --> 00:16:33.550
want what's best for us.

484
00:16:33.871 --> 00:16:39.496
We just have to submit what our best is to what he knows is best.

485
00:16:39.675 --> 00:16:39.839
Yeah.

486
00:16:39.980 --> 00:16:43.183
And the thing about that faith is it's got to be a faith in him.

487
00:16:43.277 --> 00:16:45.902
Like if I have a mountain worth of faith,

488
00:16:45.949 --> 00:16:46.761
but it's in myself,

489
00:16:47.261 --> 00:16:48.761
or if I have a mountain worth of faith,

490
00:16:48.824 --> 00:16:51.230
but it's in a picture of God that exists only in my head,

491
00:16:51.386 --> 00:16:52.636
and then I wonder why he doesn't,

492
00:16:52.918 --> 00:16:53.527
isn't faithful.

493
00:16:53.824 --> 00:16:54.933
He never promised that.

494
00:16:55.429 --> 00:16:56.450
When you read that story,

495
00:16:56.510 --> 00:16:58.092
you read about the disciples and they said,

496
00:16:59.272 --> 00:17:00.194
we didn't have enough faith.

497
00:17:00.514 --> 00:17:01.776
What was the faith in what they could do?

498
00:17:02.737 --> 00:17:03.299
And he said,

499
00:17:03.338 --> 00:17:05.338
if you had even the smallest bit of faith in me,

500
00:17:06.581 --> 00:17:09.221
mountains could move because I'm the one who can move mountains.

501
00:17:09.385 --> 00:17:09.667
And so

502
00:17:10.565 --> 00:17:13.167
I think that orienting of our faith on him is so critical.

503
00:17:13.463 --> 00:17:13.651
Yeah,

504
00:17:14.073 --> 00:17:14.682
absolutely.

505
00:17:14.963 --> 00:17:19.135
And thank you for bringing up that mustard seed of faith verse as well,

506
00:17:19.479 --> 00:17:24.010
because I think there are some Christians who kind of misconstrue it.

507
00:17:24.161 --> 00:17:26.422
probably they're not doing it intentionally,

508
00:17:26.604 --> 00:17:32.446
but they don't understand that that's not what it means to have faith in you can do this,

509
00:17:32.766 --> 00:17:36.735
but to have that mustard seed of faith in what God can do.

510
00:17:37.172 --> 00:17:43.141
And that just hearing you say it just then made so much more sense to me of what that verse meant.

511
00:17:43.454 --> 00:17:47.407
Just hearing it in that they had faith in what they could do.

512
00:17:47.907 --> 00:17:49.625
They didn't have faith in

513
00:17:50.141 --> 00:17:51.407
God. If they did,

514
00:17:51.766 --> 00:17:52.516
then they would have.

515
00:17:52.517 --> 00:17:54.135
have been able to do what they were saying.

516
00:17:54.595 --> 00:17:55.817
Why can't we do this?

517
00:17:56.097 --> 00:17:59.481
So that was an eye-opener moment for me,

518
00:17:59.559 --> 00:18:01.462
and I'm sure others felt the same.

519
00:18:01.899 --> 00:18:02.063
Yeah.

520
00:18:02.446 --> 00:18:04.126
So tell us about your book.

521
00:18:04.368 --> 00:18:05.329
What is it about?

522
00:18:05.665 --> 00:18:06.548
What is it called?

523
00:18:07.087 --> 00:18:10.071
So my book is called Jesus Be the Centerfold,

524
00:18:11.056 --> 00:18:12.212
Choosing Covenant Faith

525
00:18:12.634 --> 00:18:14.009
Over Airbrushed Christianity.

526
00:18:16.102 --> 00:18:17.181
I never set out to write a book.

527
00:18:17.243 --> 00:18:18.884
It is an exercise in obedience.

528
00:18:20.415 --> 00:18:20.899
it took me

529
00:18:21.349 --> 00:18:25.956
over two years of the Holy Spirit nudging me for me to start to take that call seriously.

530
00:18:26.174 --> 00:18:27.053
He actually had,

531
00:18:28.057 --> 00:18:28.655
at one point,

532
00:18:28.756 --> 00:18:29.596
he had made it pretty clear.

533
00:18:29.620 --> 00:18:29.815
I said,

534
00:18:29.816 --> 00:18:29.940
well,

535
00:18:29.941 --> 00:18:30.956
what do I even write a book about?

536
00:18:30.957 --> 00:18:34.065
And I took some brainstorming time and he gave me the whole outline for the book.

537
00:18:34.081 --> 00:18:34.424
And I went,

538
00:18:34.463 --> 00:18:34.581
oh,

539
00:18:34.582 --> 00:18:35.502
I know what this book is about.

540
00:18:35.784 --> 00:18:35.963
And

541
00:18:36.745 --> 00:18:37.401
I was still like,

542
00:18:37.510 --> 00:18:37.620
no,

543
00:18:38.026 --> 00:18:38.870
I'm not going to write it.

544
00:18:39.042 --> 00:18:41.151
And five minutes after I said that,

545
00:18:41.432 --> 00:18:42.963
a gal in my church texted me and said,

546
00:18:43.073 --> 00:18:43.198
hey,

547
00:18:43.276 --> 00:18:44.245
I don't usually do this,

548
00:18:44.338 --> 00:18:48.260
but the Holy Spirit prompted me to text you and ask if you're writing a book.

549
00:18:48.495 --> 00:18:50.932
And that happened six times that day.

550
00:18:51.277 --> 00:18:51.878
phone calls,

551
00:18:52.098 --> 00:18:52.679
emails.

552
00:18:52.979 --> 00:18:53.720
And at the end of the day,

553
00:18:53.759 --> 00:18:54.400
I was like,

554
00:18:54.601 --> 00:18:56.423
I still had the audacity to be like,

555
00:18:56.724 --> 00:18:57.505
I'll sleep on it.

556
00:18:57.704 --> 00:19:05.013
So I woke up the next morning and I was doing a Spanish lesson in the Duolingo language learning app.

557
00:19:05.591 --> 00:19:06.052
And it said,

558
00:19:06.091 --> 00:19:07.169
translate these sentences.

559
00:19:07.536 --> 00:19:08.458
We should write a book together.

560
00:19:08.630 --> 00:19:09.677
We're writing a book this summer.

561
00:19:09.818 --> 00:19:10.693
Are you going to write a book?

562
00:19:10.833 --> 00:19:11.474
And I was like,

563
00:19:12.240 --> 00:19:12.380
yeah.

564
00:19:12.505 --> 00:19:13.161
And I was like,

565
00:19:13.599 --> 00:19:14.005
listen,

566
00:19:14.052 --> 00:19:14.474
timeout,

567
00:19:14.521 --> 00:19:15.021
Holy Spirit.

568
00:19:15.599 --> 00:19:16.786
So I finally was like,

569
00:19:16.865 --> 00:19:17.036
okay,

570
00:19:17.068 --> 00:19:17.786
I'm going to write this.

571
00:19:17.802 --> 00:19:18.677
So the book is,

572
00:19:20.146 --> 00:19:20.443
um,

573
00:19:20.458 --> 00:19:20.583
I.

574
00:19:21.041 --> 00:19:22.782
I mentioned I was exposed to pornography young.

575
00:19:23.064 --> 00:19:24.884
This is not a book about pornography,

576
00:19:25.025 --> 00:19:27.626
but pornography became a metaphor in my life.

577
00:19:27.786 --> 00:19:32.669
What I realized in my battle with pornography was that while lust was a part of it,

578
00:19:32.771 --> 00:19:35.075
while it was like an outcropping of it,

579
00:19:35.638 --> 00:19:40.294
the actual issue was a desire for intimacy without the cost of intimacy.

580
00:19:40.622 --> 00:19:44.497
I wanted all the good benefits of a feeling.

581
00:19:44.825 --> 00:19:46.372
I didn't want the cost of a relationship.

582
00:19:47.341 --> 00:19:49.435
And what that has become in my life is a

583
00:19:49.545 --> 00:19:52.608
just a perfect metaphor for what we've done with Jesus.

584
00:19:52.669 --> 00:19:54.090
We've airbrushed Jesus.

585
00:19:54.411 --> 00:19:56.692
We know the images in our head is not real,

586
00:19:57.094 --> 00:20:01.415
but what we want is all the benefits of faith with none of the cost of an intimate relationship with God.

587
00:20:02.079 --> 00:20:02.399
And there's,

588
00:20:02.758 --> 00:20:02.962
yeah,

589
00:20:02.977 --> 00:20:05.954
there's a thousand different versions of that in each of our lives,

590
00:20:06.079 --> 00:20:07.423
areas where we compromise,

591
00:20:07.438 --> 00:20:12.094
where we read scripture and we swipe right on the stuff we like and we swipe left on the stuff we don't like.

592
00:20:12.469 --> 00:20:12.751
And we,

593
00:20:13.251 --> 00:20:13.376
we.

594
00:20:14.488 --> 00:20:17.252
build a relationship that works for us.

595
00:20:17.390 --> 00:20:20.154
But then the minute we feel like God's not keeping his under the bargain,

596
00:20:20.174 --> 00:20:20.455
we're like,

597
00:20:20.553 --> 00:20:21.474
my faith is not strong.

598
00:20:21.513 --> 00:20:21.896
I'm out.

599
00:20:21.916 --> 00:20:22.775
I don't know if I believe this.

600
00:20:23.174 --> 00:20:25.783
And what he's calling us into is a covenant.

601
00:20:25.838 --> 00:20:26.502
And so I use,

602
00:20:26.503 --> 00:20:28.041
I've been married 24 years,

603
00:20:28.181 --> 00:20:28.900
almost 25 years,

604
00:20:29.806 --> 00:20:31.361
intimacy with my wife.

605
00:20:31.627 --> 00:20:34.471
The way that I define intimacy in the book is,

606
00:20:35.127 --> 00:20:36.549
it's not about sexuality at all.

607
00:20:36.892 --> 00:20:40.236
Intimacy is about being fully known and still chosen.

608
00:20:40.861 --> 00:20:41.830
So whether that's

609
00:20:42.108 --> 00:20:42.529
mentally,

610
00:20:42.649 --> 00:20:43.069
physically,

611
00:20:43.269 --> 00:20:44.389
like I'm 47 now.

612
00:20:44.511 --> 00:20:46.374
My body does not look like it did when I got married,

613
00:20:46.413 --> 00:20:46.632
right?

614
00:20:47.393 --> 00:20:51.940
And when my wife sees me in an intimate setting and fully chooses me anyway,

615
00:20:52.401 --> 00:20:55.698
that increases intimacy in our relationship because she's loving me as I am.

616
00:20:56.003 --> 00:20:58.526
When I mess up and I treat her poorly and she forgives me,

617
00:20:58.886 --> 00:21:00.229
she's loving me as I am.

618
00:21:00.432 --> 00:21:02.370
That's the relationship God wants with us.

619
00:21:02.401 --> 00:21:09.995
He wants a relationship where we can know that we're fully exposed before him in all our sin and all our brokenness and that he's still choosing us.

620
00:21:10.984 --> 00:21:13.484
And he's inviting us into a covenant relationship.

621
00:21:13.504 --> 00:21:16.406
And so the book's just a journey,

622
00:21:16.804 --> 00:21:19.402
my journey of wrestling with that.

623
00:21:19.683 --> 00:21:20.246
Beautiful.

624
00:21:20.449 --> 00:21:21.027
I love it.

625
00:21:21.387 --> 00:21:23.105
And I absolutely agree.

626
00:21:23.106 --> 00:21:25.207
As soon as I saw the title of your book,

627
00:21:25.285 --> 00:21:26.871
The Airbrushed Christianity,

628
00:21:27.387 --> 00:21:29.230
it just made me think of social media,

629
00:21:29.449 --> 00:21:30.762
especially Instagram,

630
00:21:30.808 --> 00:21:34.933
and how people will put the best parts of themselves up there.

631
00:21:34.996 --> 00:21:36.668
Nobody's really putting.

632
00:21:36.872 --> 00:21:38.272
today was a sucky day.

633
00:21:38.432 --> 00:21:39.853
I yelled at my kid for like the

634
00:21:40.273 --> 00:21:40.875
90th time.

635
00:21:41.171 --> 00:21:42.632
Some people might do that,

636
00:21:42.972 --> 00:21:45.015
but they're not doing it often.

637
00:21:45.296 --> 00:21:51.015
And the reason why is because people will probably jump on them and criticize and all these other things.

638
00:21:51.039 --> 00:21:54.468
So they feel like they can't be real and honest with people,

639
00:21:54.671 --> 00:21:54.875
which,

640
00:21:55.062 --> 00:21:56.078
you know,

641
00:21:56.343 --> 00:21:57.578
is a catch 22.

642
00:21:58.015 --> 00:21:59.140
And there's a lot of different ways.

643
00:21:59.437 --> 00:22:00.453
Like when you read scripture,

644
00:22:00.781 --> 00:22:03.500
so you have the Pharisees who couldn't.

645
00:22:03.780 --> 00:22:08.560
see Jesus for who he was because they had an airbrushed picture of him that was about rules and regulations.

646
00:22:08.803 --> 00:22:14.322
You had the Jewish people who couldn't see Jesus for who he was because he came to free them from their sins,

647
00:22:14.346 --> 00:22:19.846
but they had a picture of a Messiah that would be a Savior who would save them from the Romans and get them out of captivity.

648
00:22:20.221 --> 00:22:21.361
And we do the same thing.

649
00:22:21.939 --> 00:22:24.658
You can airbrush Jesus legalistically.

650
00:22:24.861 --> 00:22:27.408
You can airbrush Jesus by giving yourself license.

651
00:22:27.689 --> 00:22:29.111
And he stands in the middle and he says,

652
00:22:29.158 --> 00:22:30.330
I'm not either of those things.

653
00:22:30.986 --> 00:22:32.986
You can airbrush Jesus to be a liberal.

654
00:22:33.168 --> 00:22:34.910
You can airbrush him to be a conservative.

655
00:22:35.050 --> 00:22:35.910
And he stands in the middle.

656
00:22:35.911 --> 00:22:36.130
He says,

657
00:22:37.671 --> 00:22:38.515
I'm more than that.

658
00:22:38.875 --> 00:22:39.453
I'm more than that.

659
00:22:39.535 --> 00:22:42.976
I just think there's so many places we do this in our life.

660
00:22:43.437 --> 00:22:45.578
And it was a fun wrestling match.

661
00:22:45.664 --> 00:22:46.023
Like I said,

662
00:22:46.039 --> 00:22:46.961
I never planned to write it,

663
00:22:46.984 --> 00:22:50.164
but it's been a really fun journey to go on to go.

664
00:22:50.570 --> 00:22:52.351
I just want people to know the real Jesus.

665
00:22:53.195 --> 00:22:54.617
I think there are so many Christians.

666
00:22:54.804 --> 00:22:58.820
I think churches are full of people who would go to church,

667
00:22:58.851 --> 00:23:00.414
who would call themselves Christians,

668
00:23:00.679 --> 00:23:02.820
who do not have lordship with Jesus.

669
00:23:03.204 --> 00:23:03.705
figured out,

670
00:23:03.805 --> 00:23:04.906
they have not surrendered,

671
00:23:05.627 --> 00:23:08.190
who have this feeling of this can't be all there is to faith.

672
00:23:08.248 --> 00:23:09.690
And I would say there is more.

673
00:23:09.752 --> 00:23:11.135
Jesus is more than you think.

674
00:23:11.252 --> 00:23:12.830
And he's waiting for you to discover him.

675
00:23:13.518 --> 00:23:13.713
Yeah.

676
00:23:14.112 --> 00:23:14.455
Yeah,

677
00:23:14.479 --> 00:23:14.893
I agree.

678
00:23:15.315 --> 00:23:17.799
Which chapter was your favorite to write?

679
00:23:17.862 --> 00:23:17.979
Oh,

680
00:23:17.980 --> 00:23:18.221
man.

681
00:23:18.440 --> 00:23:19.877
So when I started writing it,

682
00:23:19.878 --> 00:23:21.877
my favorite to write was prostitute.

683
00:23:21.987 --> 00:23:23.408
It's about prostituting the church.

684
00:23:24.299 --> 00:23:25.799
There's a title.

685
00:23:26.299 --> 00:23:26.424
Yeah.

686
00:23:27.174 --> 00:23:30.893
I love saying things that hit people.

687
00:23:31.264 --> 00:23:31.865
where they are,

688
00:23:31.965 --> 00:23:34.927
but cause them to do it in a way that's grace-filled and cause them to go,

689
00:23:35.068 --> 00:23:35.249
man,

690
00:23:35.289 --> 00:23:36.347
I really need to wrestle with that.

691
00:23:36.550 --> 00:23:39.371
What ended up being my favorite was the last three chapters,

692
00:23:39.433 --> 00:23:42.894
which started as a chapter that turned to two chapters that turned to three chapters,

693
00:23:43.292 --> 00:23:50.269
where I trace God's attempts from Adam and Eve all the way to Jesus of covenants with his people over and over again.

694
00:23:50.800 --> 00:23:57.222
And I think that was my favorite because not only did I get to trace those covenants and see my own brokenness in the mistakes that other people made,

695
00:23:57.223 --> 00:23:59.878
but then you get to the end and there's this point where

696
00:24:00.236 --> 00:24:04.241
Scripture talks about Jesus wanting a spotless bride,

697
00:24:05.222 --> 00:24:09.527
but washing her pure himself with his blood.

698
00:24:10.386 --> 00:24:13.245
And it was maybe the first time I understood it this way,

699
00:24:14.472 --> 00:24:16.292
that God loves us so much that Jesus said,

700
00:24:16.339 --> 00:24:18.011
not only will I do my part,

701
00:24:18.012 --> 00:24:18.808
I'll do your part too.

702
00:24:19.136 --> 00:24:22.042
And all I ask of you is just to choose me.

703
00:24:22.417 --> 00:24:26.995
Just this profound and powerful lengths that he went to out of his love for us.

704
00:24:27.417 --> 00:24:28.277
So that ended up being...

705
00:24:28.524 --> 00:24:30.465
That section ended up being kind of my favorite.

706
00:24:30.604 --> 00:24:30.764
Yeah,

707
00:24:30.945 --> 00:24:31.824
I can see why.

708
00:24:32.225 --> 00:24:40.510
Deep connection and it probably strengthened your relationship with him even more after reading all that and writing it.

709
00:24:40.885 --> 00:24:45.533
So which one was very difficult for you to write?

710
00:24:45.752 --> 00:24:50.033
Maybe because it was a spiritual area he was working on you in.

711
00:24:50.252 --> 00:24:50.393
Yeah,

712
00:24:50.862 --> 00:24:51.127
I mean,

713
00:24:51.268 --> 00:24:53.643
I would say there wasn't one chapter.

714
00:24:54.783 --> 00:24:56.783
It was how he asked me to write the book.

715
00:24:57.432 --> 00:25:00.257
This was the most vulnerable thing I've ever done.

716
00:25:02.261 --> 00:25:03.882
I tell it like it is.

717
00:25:03.905 --> 00:25:06.105
I tell the truth about myself and my struggles,

718
00:25:06.386 --> 00:25:07.753
and I share that with the world.

719
00:25:07.792 --> 00:25:10.237
And then we gave the book to our whole church.

720
00:25:10.870 --> 00:25:11.331
as a gift.

721
00:25:11.691 --> 00:25:12.671
Everybody got a free copy.

722
00:25:12.892 --> 00:25:15.173
And there's a lot of vulnerability in putting yourself out there.

723
00:25:15.174 --> 00:25:15.853
But one of the things

724
00:25:16.338 --> 00:25:17.275
I've found is that

725
00:25:17.619 --> 00:25:18.916
Satan loves to keep us isolated.

726
00:25:19.080 --> 00:25:23.822
If he can keep us afraid and isolated and playing the victim and keep us in that cycle,

727
00:25:24.744 --> 00:25:26.822
he can keep us bound up for a long time.

728
00:25:26.823 --> 00:25:29.634
And there are eight billion people doing life by themselves,

729
00:25:29.806 --> 00:25:34.291
isolated from one another in a world full of people who are going through the exact same thing.

730
00:25:34.431 --> 00:25:37.056
And the biggest lie the enemy tells us is you're the only one.

731
00:25:37.291 --> 00:25:38.556
You're the only one struggling with that.

732
00:25:38.619 --> 00:25:39.400
Don't tell anybody.

733
00:25:40.238 --> 00:25:43.479
And when you say out loud what you're struggling with,

734
00:25:43.839 --> 00:25:46.938
it takes the power away from it and allows everyone else to go,

735
00:25:47.141 --> 00:25:47.661
me too.

736
00:25:47.958 --> 00:25:49.102
And that draws us together.

737
00:25:49.259 --> 00:25:50.259
It doesn't tear us apart.

738
00:25:51.282 --> 00:25:52.962
I think the whole thing was an exercise.

739
00:25:53.141 --> 00:25:55.259
It was incredibly difficult to be that vulnerable.

740
00:25:55.282 --> 00:25:56.384
But as I was,

741
00:25:56.743 --> 00:25:59.446
the number of stories that people have read it who have come back and said,

742
00:26:01.368 --> 00:26:02.399
if you had not said that,

743
00:26:02.446 --> 00:26:05.071
I would never have been able to be honest with myself about this thing.

744
00:26:05.462 --> 00:26:09.040
Thank you for your vulnerability has been a reward in and of itself.

745
00:26:09.321 --> 00:26:09.524
Yeah.

746
00:26:09.926 --> 00:26:18.713
There's something about vulnerability and honesty and sharing our testimony with people that it just resonates with people.

747
00:26:18.994 --> 00:26:19.674
Like you said,

748
00:26:19.752 --> 00:26:23.080
Satan likes to keep us thinking we're the only ones,

749
00:26:23.159 --> 00:26:24.799
that nobody can know this,

750
00:26:25.119 --> 00:26:26.190
but that's not true.

751
00:26:26.596 --> 00:26:32.315
And when someone steps out of their comfort zone to be honest and vulnerable,

752
00:26:32.502 --> 00:26:37.112
it breaks those chains and it gives another person a chance to do the same.

753
00:26:37.418 --> 00:26:39.541
And then they break chains for other people.

754
00:26:39.680 --> 00:26:47.229
And then it's just this cycle of people getting set free because they realize they aren't the only ones that they can talk about this.

755
00:26:47.268 --> 00:26:50.830
They can share these parts of themselves that they've been hiding,

756
00:26:50.893 --> 00:26:52.932
that they've been trying to fix on their own.

757
00:26:53.252 --> 00:27:00.854
And I think that's why it's very powerful that we share our testimonies and why it's said in the Bible that we need to by the word of our testimony.

758
00:27:01.166 --> 00:27:01.307
Yeah,

759
00:27:01.463 --> 00:27:01.994
really powerful.

760
00:27:02.026 --> 00:27:02.588
There's nothing,

761
00:27:02.916 --> 00:27:03.119
you know,

762
00:27:03.120 --> 00:27:03.510
people say,

763
00:27:03.541 --> 00:27:03.760
I don't,

764
00:27:03.869 --> 00:27:04.151
I don't.

765
00:27:04.338 --> 00:27:06.020
know enough about the Bible to share the gospel,

766
00:27:06.100 --> 00:27:07.341
what you need to share is your story.

767
00:27:08.101 --> 00:27:08.343
You know,

768
00:27:08.382 --> 00:27:08.843
if you have,

769
00:27:08.964 --> 00:27:12.226
if you know enough of the gospel to be like the blind man who was like,

770
00:27:12.265 --> 00:27:13.546
I don't know who Jesus is.

771
00:27:13.585 --> 00:27:13.984
I just know

772
00:27:14.624 --> 00:27:16.507
I was blind and now I see he healed me.

773
00:27:17.773 --> 00:27:21.234
No one can argue with the testimony of a man born blind who stand there and seeing,

774
00:27:21.296 --> 00:27:27.015
and no one can argue with the testimony of the person you were and the person you become and how God has changed your life.

775
00:27:27.062 --> 00:27:31.406
And there's just nothing more powerful than the ability to say,

776
00:27:31.624 --> 00:27:32.343
here's who I was,

777
00:27:32.484 --> 00:27:33.234
Then I met Jesus.

778
00:27:33.265 --> 00:27:33.999
Here's what's different.

779
00:27:34.142 --> 00:27:35.043
And if you can do that,

780
00:27:37.085 --> 00:27:39.147
you are ready to share the gospel with anyone.

781
00:27:39.429 --> 00:27:39.565
Yeah.

782
00:27:40.526 --> 00:27:41.671
There's an encouragement,

783
00:27:41.730 --> 00:27:42.667
ladies and gentlemen.

784
00:27:43.550 --> 00:27:44.831
Just share your testimony.

785
00:27:45.230 --> 00:27:45.917
It's not hard.

786
00:27:46.276 --> 00:27:46.433
Well,

787
00:27:46.534 --> 00:27:46.792
Phil,

788
00:27:47.214 --> 00:27:52.292
where can people get a hold of you if they want to talk to you more,

789
00:27:52.839 --> 00:27:57.261
if they want to maybe visit your church if they're local to the Sioux Falls area,

790
00:27:57.683 --> 00:27:59.042
or if they want to get your book?

791
00:27:59.323 --> 00:27:59.480
Yeah.

792
00:27:59.605 --> 00:28:01.386
So if you want to check us out,

793
00:28:01.511 --> 00:28:02.730
if you check out ransom.

794
00:28:03.194 --> 00:28:03.614
dot church.

795
00:28:03.934 --> 00:28:04.755
You'll find me,

796
00:28:04.955 --> 00:28:05.555
my email,

797
00:28:07.296 --> 00:28:08.077
all of our sermons.

798
00:28:08.078 --> 00:28:09.694
You can follow the teachings and stuff like that.

799
00:28:09.854 --> 00:28:11.358
If you want to know more about the story of the book,

800
00:28:11.397 --> 00:28:12.436
I do have another website,

801
00:28:12.475 --> 00:28:13.397
philtag.com,

802
00:28:13.553 --> 00:28:14.397
that you can go check out.

803
00:28:14.553 --> 00:28:15.717
What's great about that website,

804
00:28:15.718 --> 00:28:17.577
it tells a little more about why I wrote the book,

805
00:28:17.780 --> 00:28:19.632
but then it has a free study guide.

806
00:28:19.663 --> 00:28:21.022
So if you find the book meaningful,

807
00:28:21.225 --> 00:28:25.241
you can just download the free PDF study guide and go through it with some friends and wrestle with some questions.

808
00:28:25.507 --> 00:28:27.366
The book is available on Amazon.

809
00:28:27.553 --> 00:28:29.241
My website will link you to Amazon.

810
00:28:29.460 --> 00:28:30.444
It's available hardcover,

811
00:28:30.475 --> 00:28:30.960
softcover,

812
00:28:31.100 --> 00:28:31.694
and Kindle.

813
00:28:33.366 --> 00:28:33.506
Yeah.

814
00:28:34.447 --> 00:28:34.827
Awesome.

815
00:28:35.890 --> 00:28:36.069
Well,

816
00:28:36.269 --> 00:28:37.110
thank you again,

817
00:28:37.229 --> 00:28:37.429
Phil,

818
00:28:37.491 --> 00:28:44.495
for coming on and having this conversation with me and encouraging my listeners the importance of being honest,

819
00:28:44.675 --> 00:28:45.839
sharing your testimony,

820
00:28:46.776 --> 00:28:49.042
and understanding who the true Jesus is,

821
00:28:49.144 --> 00:28:50.644
not the one we think he is.

822
00:28:50.847 --> 00:28:51.456
Thanks for having me.

823
00:28:51.457 --> 00:28:52.112
It's been a pleasure.

824
00:28:52.378 --> 00:28:52.800
Friends,

825
00:28:53.112 --> 00:28:54.472
did you enjoy the episode?

826
00:28:54.784 --> 00:28:56.034
I'm so glad to hear it.

827
00:28:56.394 --> 00:28:58.925
Leave a five-star review on Apple Podcasts,

828
00:28:59.175 --> 00:28:59.847
Spotify,

829
00:29:00.050 --> 00:29:00.940
or my website,

830
00:29:00.987 --> 00:29:02.940
honestchristianconversations.com.

831
00:29:03.330 --> 00:29:05.973
Your reviews help boost the podcast in the ratings.

832
00:29:06.253 --> 00:29:10.276
So let's make these honest conversations more accessible to those who need them.

833
00:29:10.596 --> 00:29:13.620
Be sure to follow the show so you never miss another episode.

834
00:29:14.018 --> 00:29:15.081
And while you're doing that,

835
00:29:15.463 --> 00:29:17.362
why not share the podcast with someone?

836
00:29:17.581 --> 00:29:19.409
Thank you for spending time with me today.

837
00:29:19.768 --> 00:29:21.643
I look forward to our next conversation.