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The trouble with Jesus is.
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When you hear that phrase, what do you think of?
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Does it make you angry?
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You want to know what it is that I'm going to say.
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Is the trouble with Jesus?
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Does it make you curious?
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Perhaps you are in this place where you're like, yes, I absolutely agree, there's so much wrong with Jesus.
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Well, today's guest, constance Hastings, is here to share with us the other half of that, which is unpacking your doubts before you walk away.
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We all have had doubts at one point.
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Maybe they only lasted for a short time, maybe they lasted for a longer time, but we have all had doubts at one point.
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We were not born Christians.
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Some of us grew up in the church like I did.
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Born Christians Some of us grew up in the church like I did.
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But that does not make us a Christian.
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That does not make us a believer in Christ.
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We have to accept him into our hearts.
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So today's guest is really going to challenge you and equip you with knowledge and love and grace to help you get out of those doubts, to help you dig deeper into who Jesus is, so that you don't have trouble with him anymore.
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I loved talking to Constance.
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She's a wise woman, so full of gentleness and wisdom.
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Come on, she wrote a book called the Trouble with Jesus and she knew it was going to cause a controversy, until you look at the subtitle and then you realize her true heart is just to help those with doubts.
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How could you not love that?
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How could you not love her?
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So you are going to enjoy this episode.
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Welcome to Honest Christian Conversations.
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I'm your host, anna Murby.
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Let's get to it, friends.
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Before the episode starts, make sure you follow the show so you never miss another episode.
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Constance, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today.
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I'm very excited to talk to you.
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I heard you on another podcast and you were talking about your book, which is called the Trouble with Jesus.
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I find that title so provocative and I'm sure there's a lot of Christians who have had backlash just seeing that.
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What is wrong with people?
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There's nothing wrong with Jesus, but I'm sure, if they actually take the time to read your book, that they would probably have to apologize for whatever they were thinking about what you had to say.
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But I did love the interview that I heard you on and that's why I wanted to have you on the show.
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Thank you, yeah, you have an amazing story, so why don't you share with us a little bit of your testimony, how you came to faith in Christ, and then you can tell us about your provocative book?
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I came not by the usual routes.
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We'll just say that, and I sometimes say I shouldn't be here right now.
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My family wasn't particularly religious.
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My mother was raised in a Baptist traditions and would take me to church, sunday school, until I was of the age where she could just drop me off, and that was it.
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From there on, I was on my own.
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As it was, though, that it was during the time when our city was going through the desegregation, and my parents did not want me caught up in that conflict.
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But down the street there was a small, independent, private Christian school, and it wasn't too expensive, so they sent me there.
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It was the place where, yes, I learned the usual academics, I learned to love reading, but, most importantly, that school embraced me and taught me the gospel, had me memorized a lot of the Bible, and then, back in that day, it was the old King James and taught me the steps of salvation.
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Actually, it was on a good Friday.
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That evening, I was just so, even as a seven-year-old, just convicted that Jesus died and he had to die for me, and I got on my knees in my bed and I said I'm sorry, I'm sorry, you had to do this for me, and years later, looking back on that, I realized it was like the experience of the pilgrim in John Bunyan's Pilgrim Progress I literally felt a weight lifted off of me and I knew then that Jesus had taken me into him, and so that was the beginning of my salvation story.
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Of course, growing up I did not have a firm church to support and surround me.
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Not have a firm church to support and surround me.
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Certainly in the family there were conflicting things going on that just didn't meet what I knew and was taught of Jesus in the Bible.
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So I was pretty much on my own growing up and into my teenage years in college.
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But then God gave me a job and my department chair just happened to be a pastor's son.
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We began dating and he took me to church and God took it from there.
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So I truly believe in that kind of grace where God calls you and never leaves you but leads you into a life that he would have you have in Jesus Christ.
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Now the trouble with Jesus.
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Yes, you're right.
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Some people look at that title and they think that I have problems with God, and I like to say I don't have a problem with God, at least not any more than most people do.
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There's always things where we're being stretched, and so forth.
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The subtitle of the book is Considerations Before you Walk Away.
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You see, the book is written actually to the doubter, the skeptic, the person who is looking and challenging but still has obstacles to belief in Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
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In that regard, it begins with a very edgy voice and, if I could, I'd like to read to you just the first paragraph of the book.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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I love the subtitle.
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By the way, it definitely undercuts any negativity that people have when they see the first part what is wrong with her.
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And then they look oh whoops, when I go to festivals.
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People don't see it right away, they just see the people with Jesus.
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But the book begins like this Now let's be clear about this.
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You can tell your story any way you see it and I can jump in with my two-bit commentary when I want, but none of this.
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Believe it or you're going to burn crap.
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I'm only willing to listen because I agree Jesus' story might have some things I like about it, but it's my choice what I do with it.
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I've been given other belief systems about the universe, how we got here, what it means to pass through this life, I guess so that I just think there's more.
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I'm willing to give Jesus the benefit of the doubt, and doubt is what I bring to this table.
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And that voice that's in the book let's see, it might be a little backwards on the camera is one that continues through the narration and it's challenging and questioning and sometimes just sarcastic and a lot of pushback against this narration, the story of Jesus and how it answers that, and it takes you through the life of Jesus from the beginning of his life as a baby being born, through his ministry, certainly, into his death and final resurrection, and throughout all of that it's tied together with this trouble when Jesus was born.
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We have the Christmas story and we like to put lights up and, you know, have joy to the world, but we forget that the Christmas story actually ends when King Herod, who is afraid of this baby that's going to be born King of the Jews, and he sends in his soldiers to Bethlehem and slaughters the baby boys there.
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That's the trouble with Jesus that when Jesus shows up, there can be a lot of trouble In his ministry.
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Certainly, jesus had a lot of pushback from others about his teachings and who he was as Messiah, but he also brought some trouble as well.
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And all of this converged, as I said, in his crucifixion.
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But he overcame that trouble in his resurrection by overcoming death.
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And that is the story, that is what the reader is challenged to come to a decision about.
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And when Jesus met with Martha as Lazarus had died, he said to her I am the resurrection and the life.
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Do you believe this?
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And that's the question that's given for the reader to answer in that.
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So that's why I say it's considerations before you walk away, something to think about and consider.
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But know this the trouble with Jesus is he never walks away from us.
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He's always there, always calling, always in a place of wanting us to come to him because of the grace and love that we know through him.
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That is so profound and honestly, you don't think it or hear about it during the Christmas time, about that part of the story where, unless you're reading the Bible or you've known it before but it's not part of the story that they tell in the Charlie Brown Christmas story they kind of stop once it stops being fuzzy and nice.
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But yeah, there is more that happens.
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And Jesus does say it that he did not come to bring peace like that.
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He came to bring division between mom and children, fathers, everybody.
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That's what the Bible says is that he came to bring division, which means there's going to be trouble, there's going to be heartache, there's going to be situations.
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Yeah, we look at that as humans.
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We look at those things and we think that is justification for walking away.
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We don't need to think about anything else.
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We don't have to think about it from God's perspective.
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Look at what he did.
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He had all these people, slaughtered all these poor, innocent babies for his son to be here.
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No, no, that's the problem with Christianity.
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I'm done.
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And yet no take another look at it.
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When you look at that and yes, there is violence in the Bible, there are horrible things that are related and that are hard to understand.
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Yet the Bible is such an absolute, transparent reflection of life as we know it and it doesn't back away from that.
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It meets us in those places and brings to us the understanding that even Jesus Christ took the worst of the world upon himself so that we could be reconciled to God into a place where we're included in all that God has for us.
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It could be so easy for all of us to just want to walk away because of all the violence in the Bible, all of us to just want to walk away because of all the violence in the Bible.
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We'd all have some sort of justification quote unquote for walking away from the faith, because God is this way and he's not always nice.
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But we have to look at it from a different perspective.
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This is God's story, trying to reconcile us back to him.
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And, yeah, I love that you wrote this book, because there are some people out there who will just say well, that's why I don't like Jesus is because there's contradictions in the Bible or there's too much violence.
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They say they're against this, but look at what they do in there and he doesn't like women and all these different things.
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And it's like you take all of that and go.
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Yeah, I hear you, but shut up for a second and allow me to give you a different perspective before you decide to just bow out and say I'm done, Because that's a very close-minded approach.
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A lot of people only hear what the world tells them.
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And, yes, those things are in there.
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But you mentioned, you know, about not liking women.
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My goodness, I have a whole chapter titled.
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The Trouble with Jesus was he valued women.
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I know he brought them to that place where he recognized and honored and let them be part of his.
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They weren't part of the actual 12 disciples but certainly part of the supportive groups around him.
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And you know we have the story of the women who anointed his feet.
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We have his mother and who she was, and even I believe Mary had some struggles as well in learning who Jesus was.
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But she was there at the cross and he provided for her even there.
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The woman who was caught in adultery never mind, it takes two to do that but he said to her I do not condemn you, go and sin no more.
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And he let her be who she was in the forgiveness that he brought and raising her to a place where she could live in the will of God as well.
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So all of these things I think in the book I try and well, I suppose a kind word would be clarify who Jesus was, based solidly in the four Gospels.
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Yeah, I think people project that everything that's in the Bible obviously is God, but there are some things that are contextual to that time frame where the people who are writing it are writing from what they know.
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Certain Middle Eastern countries don't respect women in the way that Jesus did, which is why he was a radical, and they probably didn't like him the Pharisees because he was treating women the way they're not used to treating them.
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So we read that and we hear the stuff that Paul says about women need to be silent in church, they should be wearing headdresses, and perhaps that's something that women are supposed to do.
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Who knows, maybe those are things that were just contextual to that time period, but people will look at that and say, oh, look see, jesus doesn't like people, but he's not the one who said those things.
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It's not him, and let's not forget, the first person to go out and tell people about Jesus Christ was a Samaritan woman, and the first person to bring the news to the disciples was Mary Magdalene.
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We're talking about a context, as you say, in which women weren't even allowed to testify in court because their words were not valued, and if the Bible wanted to, let's just say, construct a story that made sense, women would not have been included in this way.
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So, yeah, these kinds of things are there, and it comes to an understanding of who we are and how God works and how God works.
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You know, you mentioned here about how people what was your word?
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Justify themselves in walking away because of all that's wrong in the world.
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The chapter that I sometimes say is probably the one will give people the most trouble is that the trouble with Jesus is he refused to be the divine fixer.
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Now, granted, when Jesus was in ministry, he certainly was a healer and he brought healing to so many people.
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And this was in a time where, you have to remember, 70% of the population lived in extreme poverty, and so the resources that people would have weren't available to most of the population.
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The simple things like nutritious food and clean water weren't available to most of the population.
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The simple things like nutritious food and clean water weren't available to them.
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People were really suffering.
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Certainly he fed people you know the big feeding the 5,000 with what was it?
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Five loaves and two fish, I think.
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I always have to pause too.
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I'm like wait a minute.
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Am I saying this right?
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Is it one way or the other way?
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Yeah, jesus had compassion, definitely.
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But again, going back to the story of Lazarus, jesus knew that Lazarus was dying and waited to come to Bethany, the home of Lazarus, and his sisters me and Martha for four days.
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You have to understand too in this context only when someone had been dead for four days was there a belief that the spirit had left the body, so he wasn't just physically dead, he was spiritually dead and there was nothing that could be taken from that.
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Spiritually dead and there was nothing that could be taken from that.
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That's when Jesus shows up and Martha meets him and she says to him Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died.
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It's an accusatory comment.
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And then, when he meets Mary, mary repeats the same thing Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died.
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The message that they're saying to him is you weren't supposed to let this happen, you know.
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But Martha even says to him but I know God will let you do whatever you want.
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That's pretty hard.
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We know the story.
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Jesus goes to the tomb, calls Lazarus forth, he comes out, he's resurrected, he lives again.
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But Jesus, standing there, cries the shortest verse in the Bible, jesus wept and a lot of people read that as Jesus is having a shared grief with the sisters and all his friends over his death.
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But if you go back to the original Greek, the word wept indicates that he was very angry and frustrated.
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And I believe that anger and frustration is that people look to Jesus to make their lives better, to be that divine fixer.
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And, let's face it, how many times in our prayers and I confess, we don't tell God what he needs to do Mm-hmm things.
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As we see it, as we believe it should be, to serve us, it's to serve the purpose and kingdom of heaven.
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And we have to be in a realistic place.
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When these things happen, will God take us through?
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Certainly, storms are going to come, but God will ride through those storms with us and when that happens, I can tell you, your faith is so much more affirmed and strengthened in knowing God did not take away the storm but rode through it with you.
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00:19:56.769 --> 00:19:58.692
So important.
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I know I've also had that moment where I've treated God like he was a cosmic genie and give me, give me, do this for me.
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Oh, please help me with this.
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And I feel convicted now when I do that every time, because that's not what.
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He's here to show us the beauty of going through the trials.
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Sometimes we have to go through them, but we learn, we grow.
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He equips us to handle them next time, to be a little better, to show off his glory.
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So we should not be afraid to go through these, and yet we humans are.
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You mentioned being afraid.
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Someone once told me that doubt is not the opposite of faith, that fear is the opposite of faith.
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So when we're in those trials, when those storms come, just because we come to a place of where we question God and we don't know what God is going to do, it doesn't mean that our faith is any less and we don't know what God is going to do.
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It doesn't mean that our faith is any less.
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But we're called to trust God and to push away that kind of fear that would make us think we should walk away.
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And it's tough, there is that tension, but that tension, that stretching of our faith again, is what makes it stronger.
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Yep, I agree.
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So which chapter was your favorite to write, or did you just overall you enjoyed the whole thing?
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Which one did you enjoy writing the most?
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That's a good question.
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When I started it I thought I knew where it was going and I did.
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I think all of us writers feel that way.
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When we start writing something right, we know everything.
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The first chapters in the beginning.
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The second chapter is the Trouble with Jesus.
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Was he Chose Losers those?
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were very easy to write and I enjoyed that one.
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The ones of the Trouble with Jesus Was is teaching through curves.
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That deals with the parables and how we think we know what the parable says, but if you go deeper you find even a deeper meaning there.
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The one certainly the trouble with Jesus was he valued women.
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These were good chapters and I liked writing them, I guess because that was the best part about knowing Jesus.
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That was the best part about knowing Jesus.
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But when I got to the final chapters, the chapter in which I wrote about his crucifixion, I was crying.
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It was hard to write and the words were spilling out and the tears were coming.
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And it takes you back to that having to listen to this voice of doubt and skepticism, question and push back on Jesus and his death and ultimately how he overcame it.
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It sounds like it's a very profound and awesome book that a lot of people could definitely benefit from, because between the way they teach you in high schools and even college, there's a lot of people who have doubt, and I'm sure during 2020, a lot of people got their doubts as well.
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I know of several famous people Christians who said they're done with faith and they had their reasons and if they had only had your book, perhaps that could have helped and that, honestly, anna, is my prayer that people who have on their heart someone who has put up these obstacles against belief in Jesus Christ, that with strong relationship and deep prayer, I tell people to bloody your knees over them, to hand them the book and be able to say if you'll read this, could we have a conversation and let the Holy Spirit do what the Holy Spirit does and take it from there.
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That's a very encouraging statement for those of us who may have prodigal children.
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I know I have one.
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I wish she was big into reading because I definitely would hand this book to her and say read it.
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But yeah, there's so many hurting now for various reasons and they need hope.
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They need something to hold on to, and Jesus Christ is the only one worth holding on to.
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They have to find your book.
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They have to understand that their doubts are not it.
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There's more to it and they need to understand what that more is.
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And I think once they do, then they won't want to walk away from the faith.
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I don't see how you can.
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I walked away at one point.
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I was a prodigal child, but I came back and I saw how God loved me through that time, that I was my prodigal self and that he did not stop pursuing me and brought me back.
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And he's still constantly, to this day, changing me.
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He does not give up on us.
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No, I love that.
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Your story is very unique, the whole fact that you were kind of, I guess, thrust into a Christian school.
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You weren't expecting to go there and find Jesus for sure, but what is the most significant thing, that you have seen God work in your life.
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I'm sure he's been throughout your whole story, weaved in everywhere, but where is the biggest place where you see that he worked?
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The?
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most Certainly.
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As I said, god had his hand upon me and brought me to church a community of believers, to church, a community of believers and I grew in that and eventually went into faith-based counseling practice and worked in a church, so to speak, and became a deacon.
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Like I said, none of that should have happened.
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The most significant personal thing was when my father died and this is an experience that I've seen in so many places since then, but my father had a stroke the night before Thanksgiving and my sister and I met with the doctors and they basically said that the stroke was so destructive in his brain that he was to the point where he had no thought anymore, and so, my father having a living will, we made the decision to remove hydration and nutrition and to let him go.
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It took 13 days for him to pass and he was in a hospice facility and a hospice nurse came to me and she said you need to know that what's happening now is when people have that last conversation with God, and I came to understand that in this time, when he had no ability to put up obstacles against who God is in Jesus Christ, that God was able to come to him in that grace that never, ever gives up on us, to him, in that grace that never, ever gives up on us, and they could have that conversation and work out what God wanted him to know, and the most important part of that was of this immense love that God had for him and would welcome him in.
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I can't say that I know in the usual sense that my father is with God now, but I believe in my heart that's what God does.
